How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

[Wrighty67]

How do @Wrighty67

it's funny when you reference your pinga ponga facility as the "shed," kind'a have a back to the drawing board, put your nose to the grindstone tonality - I like it

i've been dedicating myself improving different parts of my game, in time, i am confident each will be more friendlier to another, pulling all the pieces together

i've also been thinking about your earlier post (about a week or two ago) on playing relaxed - none strike more of a chord than at my lesson today ... the difference in seeing balls early (anticipate better), moving towards the ball path, establish strike zone & ball quality (pace, spin, location, timing)

unfortunately when i only focus on that "relaxed" feeling, quality dwindles

one reason = i am trying to get another ball back to repeat that "relaxed" feeling, @Der_Echte calls it patty cake

to capture that relaxed sensation and remember what it feels like executing a different sort of hand/eye activity, i've started juggling (3 ball cascade) as one of my off-the-table training routines

so how's it going with being able to play more relaxed? are you able to play more relaxed and less tight over the past few sessions?

Hey LDM - good to hear from you..

I haven't played anything competitive since Monday. I had a terrible time against 3 decent players, but all of whom I could beat if playing well - I lost all 3 and largely it was being too tight and being too close to the table (poor footwork) - I have posted one of the matches below for your viewing pleasure (it fills me with horror when I see it)

I am scheduled to go through all 3 videos with my coach on Friday and work on some action points, but it's clear I am very tight on both wings and also on serve return. In my first match I gave away 5 points in game 1 on serve return, and still got to 11-10 up before missing an easy FH to win the game (and then losing it 14-12) - that was the story of my night.

I have enjoyed the videos posted on the other thread (KTS coach shows..." and will be working on my relaxation in coming weeks. I have been doing some ball drills off table (turning ball from FH/BH side of rubber in a rolling motion etc)

I was very low after Monday - felt lost, but back at it now..

Keep fighting..

Here's one of my matches;

 

[Brs]

@Wrighty67 always remember that when you change anything significant you will play worse at first. If you play better or the same then you didn't really change anything. we all groove the technique we have. even if new, un-grooved technique produce better quality later, it won't be better until it gets equally grooved.

Resisting the necessary one step back stops many adult learners from ever taking two steps forward

 

[Brs]

I watched the first set and a bit. Two things jump out. You don't know how to receive long sidespin serves. I also struggle with that, especially if it's subtle to tell between side and side-back. Useful advice someone told me was to aim for the center of the table. And don't attack hard, unless you really know the spin for sure.

The second observation is about your feet. Set playback to .25x and watch the point he serves at 5:06 or thereabouts. You made a great receive and took the advantage in the rally. Except you just watched the ball and didn't prepare at all to play another stroke. After the first game you knew this guy has *very* unconventional strokes but he can put many balls in play every point. You need always to be ready for it to come back. That is a very good habit to develop no matter who you play.

Watch that point once more at .25x and only look at your feet. It was your point to win, but it was lost by your feet.

 

[NextLevel]

Hey LDM - good to hear from you..

I haven't played anything competitive since Monday. I had a terrible time against 3 decent players, but all of whom I could beat if playing well - I lost all 3 and largely it was being too tight and being too close to the table (poor footwork) - I have posted one of the matches below for your viewing pleasure (it fills me with horror when I see it)

I am scheduled to go through all 3 videos with my coach on Friday and work on some action points, but it's clear I am very tight on both wings and also on serve return. In my first match I gave away 5 points in game 1 on serve return, and still got to 11-10 up before missing an easy FH to win the game (and then losing it 14-12) - that was the story of my night.

I have enjoyed the videos posted on the other thread (KTS coach shows..." and will be working on my relaxation in coming weeks. I have been doing some ball drills off table (turning ball from FH/BH side of rubber in a rolling motion etc)

I was very low after Monday - felt lost, but back at it now..

Keep fighting..

Here's one of my matches;

Good match to post. I write a bit too much so I will try to make a quick comment here.

You missed a lot of serve returns because you don't naturally adjust to the sidespin. And a few times, you don't read whether the server cut under the ball (closer to the tip) or behind the ball (closer to the middle of the paddle). When a serve goes to your forehand, you don't make a deliberate attempt to compensate for the sidespin and swing towards the left corner, it seems you just loop it and hope for the best, but sidespin takes the ball down the line and often long. When you don't read the cut beneath the ball, the ball goes into the net.

Small things, and they will likely get better with more practice and time. But there is something about how you loop that doesn't seem to give you flexibility of racket angle. It is weird because *sometimes* when you push, you have it. When you serve, you clearly seem to have it, but when you rally, it seems as if you are locked into a grip that does not give the wrist flexibility. It might take time for you to develop the strength in your fingers, but you need to able to hold your racket like a gun without moving the upper arm, aim it in all direction. 180 degrees. You currently don't have the wrist flexibility to do his receive but you need to build it with stretches and minor grip changes over time.

 

[Wrighty67]

Good match to post. I write a bit too much so I will try to make a quick comment here.

You missed a lot of serve returns because you don't naturally adjust to the sidespin. And a few times, you don't read whether the server cut under the ball (closer to the tip) or behind the ball (closer to the middle of the paddle). When a serve goes to your forehand, you don't make a deliberate attempt to compensate for the sidespin and swing towards the left corner, it seems you just loop it and hope for the best, but sidespin takes the ball down the line and often long. When you don't read the cut beneath the ball, the ball goes into the net.

Small things, and they will likely get better with more practice and time. But there is something about how you loop that doesn't seem to give you flexibility of racket angle. It is weird because *sometimes* when you push, you have it. When you serve, you clearly seem to have it, but when you rally, it seems as if you are locked into a grip that does not give the wrist flexibility. It might take time for you to develop the strength in your fingers, but you need to able to hold your racket like a gun without moving the upper arm, aim it in all direction. 180 degrees. You currently don't have the wrist flexibility to do his receive but you need to build it with stretches and minor grip changes over time.

Thanks NL - solid observations as always.

You're correct on the FH in particular, where I seem to get locked into the position you see that offers no flexibility or flow, and also drags my shoulder into the shot. My wrists are pretty flexible, so it may be grip related?

My instinct is that I hold the bat too close and tight to the top and need to look at lower down and more finger driven.

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks NL - solid observations as always.

You're correct on the FH in particular, where I seem to get locked into the position you see that offers no flexibility or flow, and also drags my shoulder into the shot. My wrists are pretty flexible, so it may be grip related?

My instinct is that I hold the bat too close and tight to the top and need to look at lower down and more finger driven.

Yes. It just takes awareness of where you are on the handle and what kinds of angles you need to create. Because some players just make angle adjustments with the wrist, others with the swing path, most more realistically some combination of both. But the fingers and the wrist are the easiest things to whip over small distances, advanced players use them more, though those things are taught less because they are the 10-20% while the 80% is in the legs and core. But honestly, for adult amateurs, you can get a lot out of good wrist technique as long as you understand it correctly, it is more about being able to transmit more subtlety and get more spin. Think about cracking a whip or using a hammer, you aren't tense throughout the swing, but only when you want to break the forward momentum and let it whip/crack/swing through.

Think about curving your stroke with sidespin, which is easier
1 - torquing your core in a circle
2 - swinging your racket in a curve shaped by wrist and fingers?

For serve return, it is easier to change the racket angle than to contort the whole body though both are necessary.

If you can use your wrist to shape your stroke and be more conscious of holding the racket in a way that allows you to make more racket angle changes, and practice a lot doing that, you may lose a bit in the beginning because it takes time to adapt. but over time, your body will select better and better racket angles and you will play for flexible and natural strokes. Your game will look far more advanced and natural because you are doing a lot of good things, but the stroke just does not look whippy.

 

[NextLevel]

Ultimately, the fingers over time have to become strong enough that the racket is held more by the fingers than by the palm. I suspect most of your issues are because you have too much of your racket in the palm and then squeeze too tightly with the fingers.

 

[Brs]

Watched the rest and you made a good adjustment to his sidespin serves. I think only missing once more that was side top.

Players who make spin and play many times on the table are good, no matter what they look like technique-wise. I have to respect your opponent for what he put on video.

 

[NextLevel]

Watched the rest and you made a good adjustment to his sidespin serves. I think only missing once more that was side top.

Players who make spin and play many times on the table are good, no matter what they look like technique-wise. I have to respect your opponent for what he put on video.

You must like tennis players, that is what his opponent was.

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks NL - solid observations as always.

You're correct on the FH in particular, where I seem to get locked into the position you see that offers no flexibility or flow, and also drags my shoulder into the shot. My wrists are pretty flexible, so it may be grip related?

My instinct is that I hold the bat too close and tight to the top and need to look at lower down and more finger driven.

This was the original video I wanted to post for you. You don't have to do this tomorrow - what causes injuries in TT is rushing things. Just watch it, look at the wrist exercises and build the strength over time to be able to play with that wrist and finger flexibility.

Again, this is a process.

 

[Wrighty67]

Yes. It just takes awareness of where you are on the handle and what kinds of angles you need to create. Because some players just make angle adjustments with the wrist, others with the swing path, most more realistically some combination of both. But the fingers and the wrist are the easiest things to whip over small distances, advanced players use them more, though those things are taught less because they are the 10-20% while the 80% is in the legs and core. But honestly, for adult amateurs, you can get a lot out of good wrist technique as long as you understand it correctly, it is more about being able to transmit more subtlety and get more spin. Think about cracking a whip or using a hammer, you aren't tense throughout the swing, but only when you want to break the forward momentum and let it whip/crack/swing through.

Think about curving your stroke with sidespin, which is easier
1 - torquing your core in a circle
2 - swinging your racket in a curve shaped by wrist and fingers?

For serve return, it is easier to change the racket angle than to contort the whole body though both are necessary.

If you can use your wrist to shape your stroke and be more conscious of holding the racket in a way that allows you to make more racket angle changes, and practice a lot doing that, you may lose a bit in the beginning because it takes time to adapt. but over time, your body will select better and better racket angles and you will play for flexible and natural strokes. Your game will look far more advanced and natural because you are doing a lot of good things, but the stroke just does not look whippy.

This makes a lot of sense, I certainly can feel this problem and that’s half the battle - thanks again for taking the time to help me.

 

[Wrighty67]

This was the original video I wanted to post for you. You don't have to do this tomorrow - what causes injuries in TT is rushing things. Just watch it, look at the wrist exercises and build the strength over time to be able to play with that wrist and finger flexibility.

Again, this is a process.

Looking forward to watching this - cheers!

 

[Brs]

You must like tennis players, that is what his opponent was.

Having bad technique is not always the same as being a bad player.

 

[NextLevel]

Having bad technique is not always the same as being a bad player.

The player I remember most prominently as a tennis player playing table tennis was a 2200‐2300 looper with a forehand dominant style and a lousy backhand. So the tennis player reference is more about style than playing level.

I just don't want to focus on tactics but Wright67 will own the guy on most days I suspect. Just needs more technical stability and experience to keep the ball short and long on his terms.

 

[Wrighty67]

The player I remember most prominently as a tennis player playing table tennis was a 2200‐2300 looper with a forehand dominant style and a lousy backhand. So the tennis player reference is more about style than playing level.

I just don't want to focus on tactics but Wright67 will own the guy on most days I suspect. Just needs more technical stability and experience to keep the ball short and long on his terms.

That was my thinking - he's solid and has a decent average this season, but I felt I shouldn’t have struggled.

 

[NextLevel]

That was my thinking - haws solid and has a decent average this season, but I felt I shouldn’t have struggled.

I think you might have won on other days (after all, the first two games were very close), but your technique and your movement are not at a point where you shouldn't have struggled, though I respect your pride in saying that. Losing to guys like this is part of the improvement process and I have had more than my fair share. I know the frustration of losing to someone who clearly doesn't have a clean game, but part of the improvement process requires taking full responsibility for what happened by giving the opponent credit for what they did well and figuring out what your game has to do to be able to handle that when you play them again. Unless you were out drinking the night before or something (my attempt at humor), it isn't a good idea to just write it off as a bad day, as opponents often are doing more than you give them credit for and you will struggle just as much the next time if you take that route.

One of the things you should try (it is tricky but helpful) is to learn to serve short topspin. It can be very helpful to practice short serves against players like that who want to run back from the table immediately.

 

[IB66]

Hey LDM - good to hear from you..

I haven't played anything competitive since Monday. I had a terrible time against 3 decent players, but all of whom I could beat if playing well - I lost all 3 and largely it was being too tight and being too close to the table (poor footwork) - I have posted one of the matches below for your viewing pleasure (it fills me with horror when I see it)

I am scheduled to go through all 3 videos with my coach on Friday and work on some action points, but it's clear I am very tight on both wings and also on serve return. In my first match I gave away 5 points in game 1 on serve return, and still got to 11-10 up before missing an easy FH to win the game (and then losing it 14-12) - that was the story of my night.

I have enjoyed the videos posted on the other thread (KTS coach shows..." and will be working on my relaxation in coming weeks. I have been doing some ball drills off table (turning ball from FH/BH side of rubber in a rolling motion etc)

I was very low after Monday - felt lost, but back at it now..

Keep fighting..

Here's one of my matches;

Monday night blues!!! I played a match on Monday as well, lost all 3!!!
just wasn’t ‘at the races’. Very poor performance. Like yourself, opposition was beatable.
Inconsistency ruled my night!! Had chances in lots of points, messed up!! Then general game play was poor, bad placement, easy balls for them etc etc

Played again on Wednesday, which was better, managed to win 1, and against the 2 players mentioned below, lost in 4, but games were tight. A better night.
Opposition had the 4th and 8th ranked players in the division, with 70%+ win averages.
I played one of the youngsters, that we have been coaching for a couple of years, only his second league match. He won 2, beating the 8th ranked player in a tight game, 14-12 in the 5th. He did all the things right that I did wrong!!!

 

[Brs]

I think you might have won on other days (after all, the first two games were very close), but your technique and your movement are not at a point where you shouldn't have struggled, though I respect your pride in saying that. Losing to guys like this is part of the improvement process and I have had more than my fair share. I know the frustration of losing to someone who clearly doesn't have a clean game, but part of the improvement process requires taking full responsibility for what happened by giving the opponent credit for what they did well and figuring out what your game has to do to be able to handle that when you play them again. Unless you were out drinking the night before or something (my attempt at humor), it isn't a good idea to just write it off as a bad day, as opponents often are doing more than you give them credit for and you will struggle just as much the next time if you take that route.

One of the things you should try (it is tricky but helpful) is to learn to serve short topspin. It can be very helpful to practice short serves against players like that who want to run back from the table immediately.

Ok, now I get what you were saying about the tennis style. I don't actually like it but I respect it. There is a kid where I play now who is basically a high-end version of this guy, down to the weird fh sidespin serves and excellent defense. We go 50:50 now, and he will probably improve faster than me bc he is 18. So I am 100% with you that

Losing to guys like this is part of the improvement process.

The improvement happens better if we accept why we lost to a worse [looking] player. It was never just on us, he always did something right.

And I agree that Wrighty will soon pass this guy and never look back, but I still feel like we should respect his game for the qualities it does have. imo the priorities for every shot run in this order:
1. on the table
2. with spin
3. and good placement
4. early timing
5. power

This opponent is very good at #s 1 & 2, and okay at 3. Pretty bad at 4 and 5, but those don't matter here.

I did the most basic form of charting on game one -- winners vs unforced errors for each point. It shows why you (wrighty) will leave this level of opponent in the rearview if you keep training with your coach. You won four points on winners by my count, and eight by his misses. He won all 14 by your misses and none with winners of his own. You will quickly improve to hit more winners and miss on fewer of his balls. Whereas it will be very hard for him to start making winners from where he plays, and with his technique. So once you are more consistent and your shot quality rises it's over as a competitive match.

But right now he can play more balls on the table with (funky even) spin than you can [at least in this one match, bear in mind only using the sample you posted]. So he played better in the only way that counts, even though you play far better technique by any reasonable eye test. But with no style points in TT, balls on the table is what counts. As George Downing told me once, "A point's a fuckin point, innit?"

 

[Wrighty67]

I think you might have won on other days (after all, the first two games were very close), but your technique and your movement are not at a point where you shouldn't have struggled, though I respect your pride in saying that. Losing to guys like this is part of the improvement process and I have had more than my fair share. I know the frustration of losing to someone who clearly doesn't have a clean game, but part of the improvement process requires taking full responsibility for what happened by giving the opponent credit for what they did well and figuring out what your game has to do to be able to handle that when you play them again. Unless you were out drinking the night before or something (my attempt at humor), it isn't a good idea to just write it off as a bad day, as opponents often are doing more than you give them credit for and you will struggle just as much the next time if you take that route.

One of the things you should try (it is tricky but helpful) is to learn to serve short topspin. It can be very helpful to practice short serves against players like that who want to run back from the table immediately.

Fair point NL - I certainly respect what all three of these guys did on the night to beat me. I spent 30 mins this morning with my coach before our lesson, watching all three (very very painful!) and working on where I let it go. His observations centre on being too reactive, being too close to the table despite most balls being long or half long, and losing a games worth of missed serve returns ;-)

We then worked those side/top serves into the session along with drills to help me create space and move into position to play a better loop followed by a kill shot.

Last week, funnily enough we worked on short top spin serves and I need to bring these in.

Talking to him this morning he said "if I get a push return from a serve, happy days!" whereas I half dread them because I lack confidence on BH to attack them and open up.

We then played a match - he had to get to 50 and I had to get to 20. He won 50-13 which was crazy (He is 15 in the UK though so a pretty good standard)

Good 2h session today - I'm 100% focused.

 

[Wrighty67]

Ok, now I get what you were saying about the tennis style. I don't actually like it but I respect it. There is a kid where I play now who is basically a high-end version of this guy, down to the weird fh sidespin serves and excellent defense. We go 50:50 now, and he will probably improve faster than me bc he is 18. So I am 100% with you that

The improvement happens better if we accept why we lost to a worse [looking] player. It was never just on us, he always did something right.

And I agree that Wrighty will soon pass this guy and never look back, but I still feel like we should respect his game for the qualities it does have. imo the priorities for every shot run in this order:
1. on the table
2. with spin
3. and good placement
4. early timing
5. power

This opponent is very good at #s 1 & 2, and okay at 3. Pretty bad at 4 and 5, but those don't matter here.

I did the most basic form of charting on game one -- winners vs unforced errors for each point. It shows why you (wrighty) will leave this level of opponent in the rearview if you keep training with your coach. You won four points on winners by my count, and eight by his misses. He won all 14 by your misses and none with winners of his own. You will quickly improve to hit more winners and miss on fewer of his balls. Whereas it will be very hard for him to start making winners from where he plays, and with his technique. So once you are more consistent and your shot quality rises it's over as a competitive match.

But right now he can play more balls on the table with (funky even) spin than you can [at least in this one match, bear in mind only using the sample you posted]. So he played better in the only way that counts, even though you play far better technique by any reasonable eye test. But with no style points in TT, balls on the table is what counts. As George Downing told me once, "A point's a fuckin point, innit?"

Thanks Brs, that's a really interesting data point and highlights his strength in getting that ball back and keeping it in play, and my weakness in consistency.