Road to Tokyo 2020: Chinese TT Team

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Originally Posted by Janard

According to the prospectus for the 2020 Asian Olympic Qualification Tournament (Singles), it states that "7.8 Players of the same NOC shall be separated in different groups during Stage 1 (if applicable) and in different halves (if possible) in the knock-out stage." Thoughts? Seems likely that separation by association will still apply to Tokyo Olympics?

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If you read the ITTF handbook, no. I think qualification is a different story and for obvious reasons (getting into the Olympics is a big deal and you don't want to be eliminated early by your countrymen especially since there are only 2 spots).

We reviewed the handbook at mytabletennis recently and packable pointed out the changes that seem to say the agyer the preliminary rounds, there is no more separation by association. Mima Ito has thrown a wrench into the CNT operations that they have 5 months to fix.

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Originally Posted by Vlad Celler

My opinion is that Mima Ito has quite a good chance of staying in 3rd - 4th place in the July ITTF rating .. And no.3 or no.4 - there is practically no difference for seeding ....

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If she enters the top 2, that will be really funny

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Originally Posted by NextLevel

If she enters the top 2, that will be really funny

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Unfortunately, this is probably rather purely theoretical, probably ....
CNT - team interests always put above personal ....
Make major changes to WS TOP-6 in the direction required for CWT. for the remaining three months (March does not count) - for CWT it is not difficult ....:o

I'll just copy and paste what I posted in mytabletennis.net regarding my findings on the question of whether the Olympics will have separation by association for the benefit of the TTD community.

The addition of this section in the 2019 ITTF Handbook, which applies to the Olympic Games, was only a recent amendment done during the Board of Directors meeting during the 2019 World Table Tennis Championships. It was actually Proposition 21 on the Board of Directors meeting agenda:

Olympic Competition
"4.5.2.3. Players of the same Association shall be separated according to 3.6.3.1 and 3.6.3.3 3.6.3.4 and 3.6.3.5 only in preliminary rounds but not in further rounds."

In the document, this was cited as the rationale for the amendment:
"Rationale: The ITTF World Ranking should be the main criteria for Olympic Draws."

See page 6 of this document under proposition 21: https://www.ittf.com/wpcontent/uploads/2019/03/Propositions_and_Resolutions_to_2019_BoD.pdf

I don't have a definite answer yet on whether the amendment to the ITTF handbook means that the upcoming 2020 Olympics has abolished the separation by association rule, and we should wait for a clarification from ITTF. However, if the rationale for the amendment was to make the Olympic draws mainly based on ITTF World Ranking, then it makes sense to do away with separation by association for the Olympic Games.

Maybe one can also compare and contrast the 2018 ITTF Handbook and the 2019 ITTF Handbook, particularly with regard to the amendments to the "Seeding by Association Nomination" section and the "Olympic Competitions" section. The new amendments are highlighted in yellow in the 2019 ITTF Handbook. I'll provide the links to the handbooks here:
2019 ITTF Handbook: https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uplo...andbook_v2.pdf
2018 ITTF Handbook: http://tabletennisscotland.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/2018ITTFHandbook_v2.pdf_0.pdf

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Originally Posted by NextLevel

If you read the ITTF handbook, no. I think qualification is a different story and for obvious reasons (getting into the Olympics is a big deal and you don't want to be eliminated early by your countrymen especially since there are only 2 spots).

We reviewed the handbook at mytabletennis recently and packable pointed out the changes that seem to say the agyer the preliminary rounds, there is no more separation by association. Mima Ito has thrown a wrench into the CNT operations that they have 5 months to fix.

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Yeah, the same discussion happened on TTD not so long ago too. I just find it odd that such a consideration will be extended to qualifications but not the actual tournament since this reasoning of "you don't want to be eliminated early by your countrymen especially since there are only 2 spots" can apply to both, especially considering the number of Singles slots for each NOC has already been reduced. Then again, all these revisions do cohere with the broader move towards 'internationalising' the sport, so the official Olympics handbook (when it is out) will likely not denote otherwise unless it was meant to be introduced only for 2024.

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Originally Posted by Vlad Celler

CNT - team interests always put above personal ....
Make major changes to WS TOP-6 in the direction required for CWT. for the remaining three months (March does not count) - for CWT it is not difficult ....:o

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As mentioned previously, all's still possible.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/for...Fcache-php.jpg

(I know I've said that I'm not going to Tokyo but...!)

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Originally Posted by Janard

Yeah, the same discussion happened on TTD not so long ago too. I just find it odd that such a consideration will be extended to qualifications but not the actual tournament since this reasoning of "you don't want to be eliminated early by your countrymen especially since there are only 2 spots" can apply to both, especially considering the number of Singles slots for each NOC has already been reduced. Then again, all these revisions do cohere with the broader move towards 'internationalising' the sport, so the official Olympics handbook (when it is out) will likely not denote otherwise unless it was meant to be introduced only for 2024.



As mentioned previously, all's still possible.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/for...Fcache-php.jpg

(I know I've said that I'm not going to Tokyo but...!)

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Eliminated from qualification is a bit different from elimination from the tournament especially when the tournament is based almost strictly on seeding. I do see your point but I think they just wanted to get rid of the incentive not to play players and not to send the top seeded players.

That separation rule is going to be removed. The question is when? My hunch tells me it’s not going to happen in the coming Tokyo 2020. And CNT will do whatever it can to keep it that way.
Now that German Open is over and dust settled, what’re the dynamics of Olympic selection now? Well, we got a Gang of Four on men’s side now: ML, FZD, XX, and WCQ. Both LJK and LGY failed to take advantage of this opportunity and did little to impress LGL. WCQ turns out to be a winner even though he was not even there. XX shined but at this point I still think ML and FZD will play singles. Women’s side got a little muddier. CM earned herself more credit to play singles. DN pretty much solidified her spot on the team. Not sure what’s going on with LSW’s state, seems her injuries come back to hurt her.
Cant wait for the Qatar Open.

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Originally Posted by Free bird

That separation rule is going to be removed. The question is when? My hunch tells me it’s not going to happen in the coming Tokyo 2020. And CNT will do whatever it can to keep it that way.
Now that German Open is over and dust settled, what’re the dynamics of Olympic selection now? Well, we got a Gang of Four on men’s side now: ML, FZD, XX, and WCQ. Both LJK and LGY failed to take advantage of this opportunity and did little to impress LGL. WCQ turns out to be a winner even though he was not even there. XX shined but at this point I still think ML and FZD will play singles. Women’s side got a little muddier. CM earned herself more credit to play singles. DN pretty much solidified her spot on the team. Not sure what’s going on with LSW’s state, seems her injuries come back to hurt her.
Cant wait for the Qatar Open.

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If I understand correctly, does China practically ignore ITTF ratings in the selection (unlike, for example, Japan)?

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Originally Posted by Vlad Celler

If I understand correctly, does China practically ignore ITTF ratings in the selection (unlike, for example, Japan)?

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Only what the Top officials think is best for China to gain Gold. LSW was ITTF ranked #1 from Nov 2015-Sept 2016 (11 months straight), but didn’t get chosen for WS Singles for Rio 2016. ITTF rankings or World Tours results don’t mean very much to China.

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Originally Posted by Free bird

That separation rule is going to be removed. The question is when? My hunch tells me it’s not going to happen in the coming Tokyo 2020. And CNT will do whatever it can to keep it that way.
Now that German Open is over and dust settled, what’re the dynamics of Olympic selection now? Well, we got a Gang of Four on men’s side now: ML, FZD, XX, and WCQ. Both LJK and LGY failed to take advantage of this opportunity and did little to impress LGL. WCQ turns out to be a winner even though he was not even there. XX shined but at this point I still think ML and FZD will play singles. Women’s side got a little muddier. CM earned herself more credit to play singles. DN pretty much solidified her spot on the team. Not sure what’s going on with LSW’s state, seems her injuries come back to hurt her.
Cant wait for the Qatar Open.

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Not sure what you mean. The separation rule has been removed for the Olympics. It is only for preliminary rounds. Which likely means that if you are seeded into a later round, and I think in Olympic singles, the very top seeds only start playing in round 3, ITTF wants the seeding to determine the draw. Which means that if China doesn't have the top 2 seeds enter (it sends at least one player ranked below Ito) then there is a real risk of having its players meet in the Semis.

Sorri....Offtop..

Spanish Open..
Yura Shinohara...My opinion is that the girl may have a great future ...Perhaps no less than Hirano or Ito ....:o

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Originally Posted by NextLevel

Not sure what you mean. The separation rule has been removed for the Olympics. It is only for preliminary rounds. Which likely means that if you are seeded into a later round, and I think in Olympic singles, the very top seeds only start playing in round 3, ITTF wants the seeding to determine the draw. Which means that if China doesn't have the top 2 seeds enter (it sends at least one player ranked below Ito) then there is a real risk of having its players meet in the Semis.

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This can only benefit CM & SYS

The ITTF is very poor in keeping the fans in the loop. Not like they care anyway...

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Originally Posted by zeio

The ITTF is very poor in keeping the fans in the loop. Not like they care anyway...

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So it's if CNT ranked say 1 & 3 they can still only meet in the final?

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Originally Posted by MaLin2.0

This can only benefit CM & SYS

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Maybe but there are other possibilities. Maybe CM and SYS are not allowed to play as much so that DN and LSW get the points required. Or they send more players to every tournament Ito enters in an attempt to eliminate her at as early a round as possible. The real question is how far in advance China needs to specify a team since it is already qualified.

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Originally Posted by MaLin2.0

So it's if CNT ranked say 1 & 3 they can still only meet in the final?

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No. Only the top 2 players are guaranteed to not meet until the final if they meet at all. But top 2 could be any Chinese players without a foreigner above them. So there is still time for players to get into the top 2 if they aren't there now. I suspect that China will try to get LSW into Asian Cup for example and if they can get Zhu Yuling out, they might as well.

CNT got their continental quota at the ATTC last year and the deadline for that is May 15, so roughly 3 months left to decide if they'll be able to raise LSW's and DN's ranking by July, which will be used for seeding.

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Originally Posted by zeio

CNT got their continental quota at the ATTC last year and the deadline for that is May 15, so roughly 3 months left to decide if they'll be able to raise LSW's and DN's ranking by July, which will be used for seeding.

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Prior to Tokyo 2020 - four "platinum" ITTF tours ...(if there is no cancellation China Open ..)
When calculating the rating, the unconditional deductions of old bonuses should be taken into account:
(Of course, with the replacement received at future tournaments or from the reserve ..)

C.M. - (-2250/5-2019, -1465/6-2019)
S.Y.S. - (-1465/3-2019, -2250/6-2019)
ITO - (-2000/4-2018WTTTC , -1465/5-2019, -1440/6-2019)
L.S.W. - (-1800/3-2019, -1500/4-2018WTTTC , -1800/6-2019)
W.M.Y. - (-2250/3-2019, -1800/5-2019, -1125/6-2019)
D.N. - (-1500/3-2019, -1750/4-2018WTTTC )

Liú Guóliáng - has something to think about ...

The rule change is in the proposition alright but it’s not at all clear whether the change would take effect in Tokyo 2020 or later. You bet CNT will fight for keeping the change off the coming Olympic.
Let’s assume the change will apply to the coming Games. Then CNT is in a difficult conundrum if the current rankings stand: picking LSW to play singles means there’s a 50-50 chance of two CNT fighting each other for the final against Ito. This is the risk too difficult for CNT to swallow. You would see lots of juggling for points from this point on. LSW will probably not likely to lose to any of the CNT players and there’ll be plenty of CNT players going through qualifying round and trying to stop Ito as early as possible. LSW playing single will be in danger if she can’t catch up Ito.
CNT is already in Qatar now training for the coming Qatar Open in early March. From there they will be heading to Korea for the WTTC. Poor guys just can’t go in and out of China at will due to the coronavirus pandemic. Hope things will get better soon.

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Originally Posted by NextLevel

Not sure what you mean. The separation rule has been removed for the Olympics. It is only for preliminary rounds. Which likely means that if you are seeded into a later round, and I think in Olympic singles, the very top seeds only start playing in round 3, ITTF wants the seeding to determine the draw. Which means that if China doesn't have the top 2 seeds enter (it sends at least one player ranked below Ito) then there is a real risk of having its players meet in the Semis.

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Free bird
!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Vlad Celler

Prior to Tokyo 2020 - four "platinum" ITTF tours ...(if there is no cancellation China Open ..)
When calculating the rating, the unconditional deductions of old bonuses should be taken into account:
(Of course, with the replacement received at future tournaments or from the reserve ..)

C.M. - (-2250/5-2019, -1465/6-2019)
S.Y.S. - (-1465/3-2019, -2250/6-2019)
ITO - (-2000/4-2018WTTTC , -1465/5-2019, -1440/6-2019)
L.S.W. - (-1800/3-2019, -1500/4-2018WTTTC , -1800/6-2019)
W.M.Y. - (-2250/3-2019, -1800/5-2019, -1125/6-2019)
D.N. - (-1500/3-2019, -1750/4-2018WTTTC )

Liú Guóliáng - has something to think about ...

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Well, if they insist on holding China Open as planned (as far as I know the cancellation of all international tournaments in China is slated to last for only two months – Feb & Mar), there is a high chance that the winner will be a Chinese because most would not risk the chance! Then again, Japan has the second highest number of confirmed coronavirus patients at the moment so who knows what might happen.

Anyways as mentioned previously, T2 Diamond is another major contributor to the current WR. If going solely by the "best of 8 tournaments", LSW is safely at #2 but she isn't. So, life is unpredictable like this.

The propositions were passed at the BoD meeting during the WTTC 2019. They're through. They're in the handbook.

Since Proposition 19 will take effect in Tokyo 2020, Propositions 16 and 21 will also be applied.

https://documents.ittf.sport/sites/d...pest_DRAFT.pdf
https://i.imgur.com/Td8btPq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qDo9pgY.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/TkTPl8p.jpg

The changes were passed by the BoD, consisting of 43 members. A simple majority is required.

https://www.ittf.com/directory/officials/#bd
https://www.ittf.com/2017/05/31/boar...members-named/

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Originally Posted by Free bird

The rule change is in the proposition alright but it’s not at all clear whether the change would take effect in Tokyo 2020 or later. You bet CNT will fight for keeping the change off the coming Olympic.
Let’s assume the change will apply to the coming Games. Then CNT is in a difficult conundrum if the current rankings stand: picking LSW to play singles means there’s a 50-50 chance of two CNT fighting each other for the final against Ito. This is the risk too difficult for CNT to swallow. You would see lots of juggling for points from this point on. LSW will probably not likely to lose to any of the CNT players and there’ll be plenty of CNT players going through qualifying round and trying to stop Ito as early as possible. LSW playing single will be in danger if she can’t catch up Ito.
CNT is already in Qatar now training for the coming Qatar Open in early March. From there they will be heading to Korea for the WTTC. Poor guys just can’t go in and out of China at will due to the coronavirus pandemic. Hope things will get better soon.

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Not sure why you think it is not clear that it applies to the current Olympic cycle. When things don't apply with immediate effect, dates for implementation tend to specified, no?

Or by default changes apply to the next cycle?

The thing is that when this change was passed, China had all the top spots. So they may have agreed with a false sense of security.

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Originally Posted by Janard

Anyways as mentioned previously, T2 Diamond is another major contributor to the current WR. If going solely by the "best of 8 tournaments", LSW is safely at #2 but she isn't. So, life is unpredictable like this.

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LSW might live to regret not showing up for the two T2 Diamond tournaments. Maybe she, like most of us, was unaware of the Olympic Rule change that did away with separation by association, so she made an uninformed decision in skipping the T2 Tournaments. Had she known, she could have just showed up and even if she lost both tournaments in the first round, she'd have 800 more bonus points from the two tournaments combined, which puts her comfortably above Ito in WR. If she was injured, she could have just played her first match of the tournament in a way to avoid aggravating the injury and fly home the next day. Wong Chun Ting, who didn't even finish his T2 Singapore match still got his 400 bonus points.

If CTTA doesn't put much weight into WR and Olympic seeding, then LSW's singles spot should still be safe. However, if CTTA does put great weight in WR and Olympic seeding, then for the next 4 months, LSW will experience the same pressure Ito, Ishikawa, and Hirano faced last year in trying to secure their Olympic singles spots.

Interesting....Oman cellend plus - C.I.C. .......

Fun Fact:

If CM gets picked for singles, she'll create history for being the first Olympian and gold medal contender from CNT with NO national title, NO continental title, and NO world title...

True to her nickname - Ms Open.

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Originally Posted by apacible

LSW might live to regret not showing up for the two T2 Diamond tournaments. Maybe she, like most of us, was unaware of the Olympic Rule change that did away with separation by association, so she made an uninformed decision in skipping the T2 Tournaments. Had she known, she could have just showed up and even if she lost both tournaments in the first round, she'd have 800 more bonus points from the two tournaments combined, which puts her comfortably above Ito in WR. If she was injured, she could have just played her first match of the tournament in a way to avoid aggravating the injury and fly home the next day. Wong Chun Ting, who didn't even finish his T2 Singapore match still got his 400 bonus points.

If CTTA doesn't put much weight into WR and Olympic seeding, then LSW's singles spot should still be safe. However, if CTTA does put great weight in WR and Olympic seeding, then for the next 4 months, LSW will experience the same pressure Ito, Ishikawa, and Hirano faced last year in trying to secure their Olympic singles spots.

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CM & SYS will be happy
Mima usually struggles against both so she wouldn't be as happy

You would think LSW has XD event locked away so DN might be unlucky one here missing out all together.

You would agree if LSW is good enough she can overtake Mima? There is still plenty tournaments to make grounds
* Qatar Platinum
* Japan Open Platinum
* China Open Platinum
* Hong Kong Open
* Australian Open Platinum
& Asian Championship when it resumes

Only 350 points behind

If can't overtake and say Wang Manyu overtakes and Sun Yingsha keeps her spot then this should alter decisions of who to send.

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Originally Posted by zeio

Fun Fact:

If CM gets picked for singles, she'll create history for being the first Olympian and gold medal contender from CNT with NO national title, NO continental title, and NO world title...

True to her nickname - Ms Open.

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But she has to flail at the Olympics to retain that title too LOL

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Originally Posted by MaLin2.0

CM & SYS will be happy
Mima usually struggles against both so she wouldn't be as happy

You would think LSW has XD event locked away so DN might be unlucky one here missing out all together.

You would agree if LSW is good enough she can overtake Mima? There is still plenty tournaments to make grounds
* Qatar Platinum
* Japan Open Platinum
* China Open Platinum
* Hong Kong Open
* Australian Open Platinum
& Asian Championship when it resumes

Only 350 points behind

If can't overtake and say Wang Manyu overtakes and Sun Yingsha keeps her spot then this should alter decisions of who to send.

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Add Korea Open ...
LSW - my opinion is that ... hmm ... it will be difficult for her to get around Mima Ito without the help of CWT .... If CWT helps LSW - then it is possible .. ..
(Mima Ito before the start of the games in Tokyo - surrounded by six Chinese women in the TOP-10 and 3 Chinese women in the TOP-20)

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Originally Posted by Vlad Celler

Add Korea Open ...
LSW - my opinion is that ... hmm ... it will be difficult for her to get around Mima Ito without the help of CWT .... If CWT helps LSW - then it is possible .. ..
(Mima Ito before the start of the games in Tokyo - surrounded by six Chinese women in the TOP-10 and 3 Chinese women in the TOP-20)

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Nine on one - too much ....

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Originally Posted by Janard

But she has to flail at the Olympics to retain that title too LOL

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https://art-sheep.com/wp-content/upl...s-edison-2.jpg

https://i1.wp.com/tennisthreads.net/...24%2C683&ssl=1

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Originally Posted by zeio

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/for...s-edison-2.jpg

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/for...%253Bssl%253D1

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Or we have all misunderstood her alleged 'incompetence' for tenacity to start a new record (i.e. first to win Olympics Singles Gold without any World Singles titles). 前无古人，后无来者. Oh, but Ito is in a similar predicament.

Thx Zeio for the info. To me, that really closed the coffin cover (盖棺定论). I think LSW team have made a colossal mistake in skipping tours and avoiding matches against Ito last year. If the ranking stands and LSW doesn’t get a chance to show coaches she can beat Ito, her chance of playing singles at the Olympic will be next to zero.

The men’s team is in a better shape in this regard. But ML is a bit too close to HT. CNT would like a wider margin so ML won’t have to kill himself just to keep up with the ranking. Now I begin to wonder what QZJ told FZD during that odd timeout when FZD was in a driving seat (9:7, 3:1) ;)

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Originally Posted by Janard

But she has to flail at the Olympics to retain that title too LOL

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Caroline Meng. Chen Wozniacki

https://i.imgur.com/s4epDhV.png

https://i.imgur.com/Nn9N8jx.png
https://i.imgur.com/jcN0xjz.jpg

p.s. Updated the highlighting to be consistent with ITTF where the most recent event takes precedence.

WOW! Ito gained a whooping 2655 points during LSW’s absence. All these three withdrawals happened way after the propositions were passed. I’d say CNT has dropped the ball big time to put themselves in such a conundrum.

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Originally Posted by Free bird

WOW! Ito gained a whooping 2655 points during LSW’s absence. All these three withdrawals happened way after the propositions were passed. I’d say CNT has dropped the ball big time to put themselves in such a conundrum.

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If I understand correctly, then the situation - LSW No. 3 and ITO No. 4 - no advantage LSW .....

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Originally Posted by Free bird

WOW! Ito gained a whooping 2655 points during LSW’s absence. All these three withdrawals happened way after the propositions were passed. I’d say CNT has dropped the ball big time to put themselves in such a conundrum.

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Does it have to be LSW that qualifies for singles? What if from now til Tokyo 2020 both SYS & WMY overtake Mima and convincingly win tournaments whilst LSW bows out in QF & SF? Is LSW still your preference, this reminds me too much of 2016.

What are LSW chances of playing in singles at Tokyo 2020 considering?

1, Mima just added more points with Hungarian Open win
2, Asian Championships might be further postponed due to virus outbreak
3, Future events in South Korea, China, Hong Kong possibly in doubt due to virus, so catching Mima in rankings possibility might not happen
4, Might not get chance to play Mima prior to Tokyo 2020
5, new rule for Olympics, players in same association will not be separated, surely CNT would prefer their players on opposite ends

Do you still go with LSW or re-thinking now?

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Originally Posted by MaLin2.0

What are LSW chances of playing in singles at Tokyo 2020 considering?

1, Mima just added more points with Hungarian Open win
2, Asian Championships might be further postponed due to virus outbreak
3, Future events in South Korea, China, Hong Kong possibly in doubt due to virus, so catching Mima in rankings possibility might not happen
4, Might not get chance to play Mima prior to Tokyo 2020
5, new rule for Olympics, players in same association will not be separated, surely CNT would prefer their players on opposite ends

Do you still go with LSW or re-thinking now?

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Since she is playing mixed doubles, her chances are likely lower. What the CNT does will be interesting but they have 4 months to fix the rankings.