Soft vs Hard Rubbers

Hi, I just bought my first made racket
FH: Neo Hurricane 3(40)
BH: Galaxy Moon Max Tense
Blade:Galaxy T-11+
I was playing with a pre-made racket before with FH and BH Friendship 729 Super FX
Now I'm having difficulties adapting to the new racket.
It seems to me that the neo hurricane 3 produce less spin than my old Super FX which isn't supposed to be the case. When I spin the ball with my FH it seems to me that the contact with the ball is longer with the Super FX whereas the ball immediately bounce off upon contact with the Neo Hurricane 3. Even during serve I sense better spin with FX, the ball literally just bounce off without much spin with the Neo Hurricane 3
I think it might be due to the degree of the sponge but I cannot find much difference between the 2 rubbers on that aspect.
I went with 40 degrees because I heard that it produce more spin, better etc, but this doesn't seem to be the case. Anyone has ever experienced this? Thanks

i havent... i chop with hurricane 3 (normal, commercial), and find it very spinny..so cant really help, sorry...
i found generally, when i attacked, the softer the rubber, the faster it is. although obviously most soft rubber produce a lot of spin too.
i find the chinese rubbers are generally very tacky and good for spinning though, and h3 is one of the best, so im not a lot of help...sorrry :/
perhaps its just a duff sheet.

it comes down to technique with the rubber differences. because H3 has a very hard sponge, there is not alot of time that the ball is contacting it before it is off the rubber. you need more brushing of the ball to get more spin, and not going through the ball as much as before. cant say for sure without seeing, or for that matter feeling what you are doing.

but i think the issue definitely comes down to developing a better feel for touch and brushing the ball.
but im no expert, im just thinking physics wise that's what makes sense :]
hope that helped

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John_Pish

it comes down to technique with the rubber differences. because H3 has a very hard sponge, there is not alot of time that the ball is contacting it before it is off the rubber. you need more brushing of the ball to get more spin, and not going through the ball as much as before. cant say for sure without seeing, or for that matter feeling what you are doing.

but i think the issue definitely comes down to developing a better feel for touch and brushing the ball.
but im no expert, im just thinking physics wise that's what makes sense :]
hope that helped

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I can copy that. The harder the sponge is, the more you need to work on your touch. While it is easier to generate a certain amount of spin with softer rubbers you can get a lot more spin with the H3 due to its tacky rubber, but, as already mentioned, you have to improve your "touch".

It is the same thing, when deciding the thickness of the sponge. Maximum generates more speed and spin but needs a cleaner technique than thinner sponges.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John_Pish

it comes down to technique with the rubber differences. because H3 has a very hard sponge, there is not alot of time that the ball is contacting it before it is off the rubber.

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Well, yes and no, depends on what blade you use. If you are playing a hard sponge on a very flexy blade, the hard sponge will really engage the blade flex and as a result, your racket will have plenty dwell.

A soft rubber on the same racket, will typically not engage the blade flex as much, so you get more dwell from the rubber but much less dwell from the blade.

(Soft rubber will take much of the ball's impact energy, and use it to catapult the ball, so much the energy gets dissipated in the sponge. Hard dead sponges let most of the impact energy push the rubber into the blade, so if the blade is flexy, you get dwell and catapult from the blade instead of the rubber.)

I play a very flexy blade with hard rubber on the forehand and soft on the backhand, and this effect is very noticeable if I twiddle. (I twiddle when I EJ my soft backhand rubber and I'm curious of how it plays on the forehand.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Markvee

Well, yes and no, depends on what blade you use. If you are playing a hard sponge on a very flexy blade, the hard sponge will really engage the blade flex and as a result, your racket will have plenty dwell. (On this kind of blade, the rubber won't spit the ball out before the blade flexes back.)

A soft rubber on the same racket, will typically not engage the blade flex as much, so you get more dwell from the rubber but less dwell from the blade.

I play a very flexy blade with hard rubber on the forehand and soft on the backhand, and this effect is very noticeable if I twiddle. (I twiddle when I EJ my soft backhand rubber and I'm curious of how it plays on the forehand.)

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i agree, just speaking in general terms, the harder the sponge, the more Brush/touch you need in your stroke to get the most out of it

Sponge hardness is a topic that is often misunderstood. Various amounts of spin & speed are produced on the ball depending on several factors...
These factors are

1)Dwell time (mostly related to spin but in soft rubbers it creates speed also)

2)Power of the stroke (related to spin & spin also, the harder the hit the faster the ball, the harder the brush the spinnier the ball)

3)Tehcnique timing & angle of the stroke that also produce different amounts speed & spin

Some physics to understand better

http://z.about.com/d/tabletennis/1/0...ndiffspeed.gif

There are two forces on the ball a) the tangential one that creates spin b)and the lateral one that creates speed

Notice that by the term speed we mean horizontal speed not vertical! The actual result of these two forces is that the ball is travelling spinny and speedy creating an arc.

Lets assume that a table tennis sponge is like a spring . Hard springs when compared to softer ones when fully compressed produce more force thus more acceleration (F= K X A , Newton's law) thus more speed, to the object that compresses them. K is the modulus of elasticity of the spring=sponge, F the Force , A fore acceleration

Conclusion no1 : When the sponge is hard you need strong hitters to manage to compress the sponge at its full in order to take full advantage of its abilities ! To achieve that you need a hard hitter with perfect timing and angle of the racket. Like any chinese professional player for example...doesnt have to be top10. That doesnt mean that if you are in good physical condition with fast footwork and good body & wrist rotation (but not a pro player) you cant play effectively with a chinese rubber
.
Conclusion no2 : With softer sponges (the sponge has more "porosity") you need less power and have big margin for error in your angle of your strokes to achieve a desired arc (speed&spin). Because of the softness, the ball compresses easily the sponge at its full potential giving you & me and the whooole TTdaily forum amateur players an easy task!

Conclusion no3 : Knowing the importance of timing, paddle angle and sponge hardness, underspins lifted with hard rubbers need perfect technique and timing compared to the soft ones. A heavy underspin if lifted with a small error in technique using a soft rubber, maybe will not be lifted (or lifted with less pace & arc) with a hard rubber. BUT when you learn your technique correctly and learn to lift every underspin ball with ease, using hard rubbers will give you more effective shots

So...If you have good technique footwork and physique you can play with a hard tacky rubber like the hurricane (boosted of course...chinese rubbers were invented to be boosted) . If you are a beginner who still is improving his shots prefer a soft rubber.

p.s. Notice that conclusion1&2&3 are considering the exact same stroke with the exact same incoming ball to your paddle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chiz

Hi, I just bought my first made racket
FH: Neo Hurricane 3(40)
BH: Galaxy Moon Max Tense
Blade:Galaxy T-11+
I was playing with a pre-made racket before with FH and BH Friendship 729 Super FX
Now I'm having difficulties adapting to the new racket.
It seems to me that the neo hurricane 3 produce less spin than my old Super FX

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T-11 is a fast blade, and won't hold the ball nearly as long as a typical pre-made racket. (These are usually allround-style 5-ply rackets which have lots of dwell.) I think this is the main problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chiz

Hi, I just bought my first made racket
FH: Neo Hurricane 3(40)
BH: Galaxy Moon Max Tense
Blade:Galaxy T-11+
I was playing with a pre-made racket before with FH and BH Friendship 729 Super FX
Now I'm having difficulties adapting to the new racket.
It seems to me that the neo hurricane 3 produce less spin than my old Super FX which isn't supposed to be the case. When I spin the ball with my FH it seems to me that the contact with the ball is longer with the Super FX whereas the ball immediately bounce off upon contact with the Neo Hurricane 3. Even during serve I sense better spin with FX, the ball literally just bounce off without much spin with the Neo Hurricane 3
I think it might be due to the degree of the sponge but I cannot find much difference between the 2 rubbers on that aspect.
I went with 40 degrees because I heard that it produce more spin, better etc, but this doesn't seem to be the case. Anyone has ever experienced this? Thanks

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Read my previous post if you like :) It is rather unlikely that the 729 FX produces more spin that the hurricane. Maybe you feel that way because it is softer thus giving you more feedback in your palm.

Of course the fact that you have an OFF+ blade plays an important role in the dwell time of the blade...pre made paddles are very slow compared to custom ones. So they have more dwell time=more spin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TTFrenzy

Sponge hardness is a topic that is often misunderstood. Various amounts of spin & speed are produced on the ball depending on several factors...
These factors are

1)Dwell time (mostly related to spin but in soft rubbers it creates speed also)

2)Power of the stroke (related to spin & spin also, the harder the hit the faster the ball, the harder the brush the spinnier the ball)

3)Tehcnique timing & angle of the stroke that also produce different amounts speed & spin

Some physics to understand better

http://z.about.com/d/tabletennis/1/0...ndiffspeed.gif

There are two forces on the ball a) the tangential one that creates spin b)and the lateral one that creates speed

Notice that by the term speed we mean horizontal speed not vertical! The actual result of these two forces is that the ball is travelling spinny and speedy creating an arc.

Lets assume that a table tennis sponge is like a spring . Hard springs when compared to softer ones when fully compressed produce more force thus more acceleration (F= K X A , Newton's law) thus more speed, to the object that compresses them. K is the modulus of elasticity of the spring=sponge, F the Force , A fore acceleration

Conclusion no1 : When the sponge is hard you need strong hitters to manage to compress the sponge at its full in order to take full advantage of its abilities ! To achieve that you need a hard hitter with perfect timing and angle of the racket. Like any chinese professional player for example...doesnt have to be top10. That doesnt mean that if you are in good physical condition with fast footwork and good body & wrist rotation (but not a pro player) you cant play effectively with a chinese rubber
.
Conclusion no2 : With softer sponges (the sponge has more "porosity") you need less power and have big margin for error in your angle of your strokes to achieve a desired arc (speed&spin). Because of the softness, the ball compresses easily the sponge at its full potential giving you & me and the whooole TTdaily forum amateur players an easy task!

Conclusion no3 : Knowing the importance of timing, paddle angle and sponge hardness, underspins lifted with hard rubbers need perfect technique and timing compared to the soft ones. A heavy underspin if lifted with a small error in technique using a soft rubber, maybe will not be lifted (or lifted with less pace & arc) with a hard rubber. BUT when you learn your technique correctly and learn to lift every underspin ball with ease, using hard rubbers will give you more effective shots

So...If you have good technique footwork and physique you can play with a hard tacky rubber like the hurricane (boosted of course...chinese rubbers were invented to be boosted) . If you are a beginner who still is improving his shots prefer a soft rubber.

p.s. Notice that conclusion1&2&3 are considering the exact same stroke with the exact same incoming ball to your paddle.

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what a great post.

I think it's also because your equipment jump is quite extreme too..

Here is some reasons and stuffs for your own study about this matter:

1. In the forehand you are now using a chinese tacky rubber instead of your previous
Search engine keyword: chinese rubber vs euro/jap rubber, tacky rubber vs grippy rubber, topsheet spin and mechanical spin

2. Both in your forehand and backhand, you are now using harder sponge
Search engine keyword: table tennis soft vs hard rubber, table tennis dwell time

3. Both in your forehand and backhand, you are now using rubber with higher throw angle
Search engine keyword: table tennis rubber throw, table tennis high throw low throw

4. Both in your forehand and backhand, your rubber now has vertically aligned pips (horizontally before)
Search engine keyword: table tennis vertical pips horizontal pips

Sorry can't tell much, gotta run, I hope this helps :)

Edit: and as always, TECHNIQUE is the other side of the coin.. Can't leave that..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Super Chopper

i havent... i chop with hurricane 3 (normal, commercial), and find it very spinny..so cant really help, sorry...
i found generally, when i attacked, the softer the rubber, the faster it is. although obviously most soft rubber produce a lot of spin too.
i find the chinese rubbers are generally very tacky and good for spinning though, and h3 is one of the best, so im not a lot of help...sorrry :/
perhaps its just a duff sheet.

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H3 is very tacky?How do you judge that?because after a few hours of play I can only slightly feel the tackiness. and I did not find it especially tacky as new.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John_Pish

it comes down to technique with the rubber differences. because H3 has a very hard sponge, there is not alot of time that the ball is contacting it before it is off the rubber. you need more brushing of the ball to get more spin, and not going through the ball as much as before. cant say for sure without seeing, or for that matter feeling what you are doing.

but i think the issue definitely comes down to developing a better feel for touch and brushing the ball.
but im no expert, im just thinking physics wise that's what makes sense :]
hope that helped

---

How do I get more brushing if there is less contact time?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BLUE

I can copy that. The harder the sponge is, the more you need to work on your touch. While it is easier to generate a certain amount of spin with softer rubbers you can get a lot more spin with the H3 due to its tacky rubber, but, as already mentioned, you have to improve your "touch".

It is the same thing, when deciding the thickness of the sponge. Maximum generates more speed and spin but needs a cleaner technique than thinner sponges.

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Again why do everyone says H3 is very tacky?I did not find it that way. In fact I when comparing Super FX and H3 as new I would say I find Super FX tackier.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TTFrenzy

So...If you have good technique footwork and physique you can play with a hard tacky rubber like the hurricane (boosted of course...chinese rubbers were invented to be boosted) . If you are a beginner who still is improving his shots prefer a soft rubber.

p.s. Notice that conclusion1&2&3 are considering the exact same stroke with the exact same incoming ball to your paddle.

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What do you mean boosted?How do I do that?Actually I have been playing for around 5 years with pre-made rackets and thought that it was time to give custom made ones a try. I mostly read some reviews online to choose my blade and rubbers and bought it off ebay as the prices literally robbery.

Ty

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YosuaYosan

I think it's also because your equipment jump is quite extreme too..

Here is some reasons and stuffs for your own study about this matter:

1. In the forehand you are now using a chinese tacky rubber instead of your previous
Search engine keyword: chinese rubber vs euro/jap rubber, tacky rubber vs grippy rubber, topsheet spin and mechanical spin

2. Both in your forehand and backhand, you are now using harder sponge
Search engine keyword: table tennis soft vs hard rubber, table tennis dwell time

3. Both in your forehand and backhand, you are now using rubber with higher throw angle
Search engine keyword: table tennis rubber throw, table tennis high throw low throw

4. Both in your forehand and backhand, your rubber now has vertically aligned pips (horizontally before)
Search engine keyword: table tennis vertical pips horizontal pips

Sorry can't tell much, gotta run, I hope this helps :)

Edit: and as always, TECHNIQUE is the other side of the coin.. Can't leave that..

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I would have preferred to check the goods before buying but unfortunately that is not possible and I made my choice by going along with some reviews.
Isn't Super FX a chinese rubber?Actually when I choose degree of sponge I choose 40 because I wanted the feel to be a bit like Super FX(found it a bit hard but just right), but as degree are just numbers online I made a wrong decision.

thanks

怎么不用红双喜的底板？狂飙王3、狂飙龙2也行啊，银河底板在中国比较差！狂飙40很硬了，多适应。

anyway ditch the t11 the only thing its good for is attacking miles away from the table with hurricane.

get something like a rosewood, or hurricane Hao, or a clipper wood

Quote:

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Originally Posted by decoy

anyway ditch the t11 the only thing its good for is attacking miles away from the table with hurricane.

get something like a rosewood, or hurricane Hao, or a clipper wood

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unfortunately I cannot change blade due to financial reasons,I will just have to do with it. What I want is to adapt to what I have.
Reviews tabletennisdb were only praising the t11 saying that it's good for attacking etc...that's why I went along with it.

and I'm not very muscular that's why I choose something light as reviews said that rubbers themselves were already a bit heavy.

Anyway I play only during my free time from university and I don't want to spent more money on something that I do only 1-2 every 2 week, my budget is at its limit.

btw why is it good for is attacking miles away from the table?I played with it and can attack perfectly fine near the table.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dklaaaa

怎么不用红双喜的底板？狂飙王3、狂飙龙2也行啊，银河底板在中国比较差！狂飙40很硬了，多适应。

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I can't read chinese