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It is not our fault that there is big competition in china for example...
No, it isn't, but it's not the players fault and it's not China's fault either, because if "we" didn't allow them to play for "us" , "they" wouldn't be able to. We have created the situation ourselves by implementing the rules. Blame "us" or our national associations instead.

This doesn't only apply to non-European players. Many players play for a country they weren't born in or grew up in.
To give just a few examples: Amelie Solja isn't Austrian, Kreanga isn't Greek, Ovtcharov isn't German if you follow the "born in this country line".

How do we judge what is reasonable or not? Are you only allowed to play for a country where you were born? Or for a country where you got your table tennis education? Or only for a country were you look like the majority population? Are second generation players "European" if they were born in the country, but look Chinese, Peruvian, Indian or Kenyan? Where do you draw the line?
Judging by some comments above, players in the European Championships should look European, not anything else. I find that very restrictive and old-fashioned. The modern world we live in today and the movement of people between countries is reflected in the entry list.

Personally I think the current rules work OK. I just want to see great table tennis and play great table tennis. I don't care where people are from as long as they are nice and we enjoy the competition and learn together.
 
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So both English players knocked out and denied a medal in the European Games by a Chinese player.

I don't see how that is good for the game in Europe. The casual onlooker will just conclude that Table Tennis is a sport for Asians (again). Especially with the women's game dominated by Chinese players too.

OK the English players are not good enough, but does this sort of thing encourage the worldwide growth of the sport ?
 
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brabhamista, you have some good points, but I am also looking to promotion of table tennis and in this case i agree to SpinQuark, that new people or who don't much see best table tennis matches can really see and think that all last matches of championships are played by asians (I mean semis/finals are usually widely streamed on TV) so it is like: "oh again asians playing in the semis/finals, probably this game is for asians only.. not interesting.."
 
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No, it isn't, but it's not the players fault and it's not China's fault either, because if "we" didn't allow them to play for "us" , "they" wouldn't be able to. We have created the situation ourselves by implementing the rules. Blame "us" or our national associations instead.

This doesn't only apply to non-European players. Many players play for a country they weren't born in or grew up in.
To give just a few examples: Amelie Solja isn't Austrian, Kreanga isn't Greek, Ovtcharov isn't German if you follow the "born in this country line".

How do we judge what is reasonable or not? Are you only allowed to play for a country where you were born? Or for a country where you got your table tennis education? Or only for a country were you look like the majority population? Are second generation players "European" if they were born in the country, but look Chinese, Peruvian, Indian or Kenyan? Where do you draw the line?
Judging by some comments above, players in the European Championships should look European, not anything else. I find that very restrictive and old-fashioned. The modern world we live in today and the movement of people between countries is reflected in the entry list.

Personally I think the current rules work OK. I just want to see great table tennis and play great table tennis. I don't care where people are from as long as they are nice and we enjoy the competition and learn together.

Exactly. Actually i didn't want to write anything, cause i just had this kind of discussion on another TT-Forum and i think this is totally backwards, outdatet, short-sighted and narrow-minded.
And besides that: we're getting a bit offtopic here.

Well mainly, to make it short, lookin' back in history, humans always went, where life offered them better opportunities.
Going back to the days of the homo erectus, to the early homo sapiens, to the days of the indo-europeans around 100 b.c., to the slavic mass migration around 700 a.d. to the european migration to the both americas 400 years ago.
So since this is going on so long, i don't think this is gonna stop so soon.
Now this is basically how it is. Some people should rather learn how to deal with it! ;-)

Its not banned in the Olympics but it's banned for major ITTF events (World Cup, WTTC and WTTTC). IMO, every country has its immigration policy. No one should complain if their country is doing what it needs to to keep the sport alive. Many of those players are raising the level of TT in Europe.

Absolutely right. Like e.g. Jie Schöpp, who became german women's national Headcoach after her career as a player...
I think people like Han Ying, Shan Xiaona or Li Jiao are uplifting for "european" tabletennis and giving european players the chance to learn how to play against chinese players.

.... but I am also looking to promotion of table tennis and in this case i agree to SpinQuark, that new people or who don't much see best table tennis matches can really see and think that all last matches of championships are played by asians (I mean semis/finals are usually widely streamed on TV) so it is like: "oh again asians playing in the semis/finals, probably this game is for asians only.. not interesting.."

I totally disagree. I think only narrow-minded, and slightly racist people would think that way. Let me tell you why.
If "our" players don't win against 3rd or 4th level chinese players, what can we expect if they play against top level chinese players??? Can someone please answer this question?
I really think this is a BIG chance for players to grow and I highly recommend rather not to miss it!
 
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If i see that the both Li's could win gold and silver, that is what makes me cry. Not because they are chinese but that they can win with their playstyle. That shows that woman tabletennis has problems. They are not able to break out of their cage and adapt so they can overcome this. The top-european-woman players are losing to players with a style which would not have a chance in the 7. male class. But if you play a "straight" style and what they know, they are destroying you till i think 3. or second male class. I have the feeling that womans are not as good because they are not using enough their brains in table tennis and because they are "afraid" of what they dont know. A very good example is Georgina Pota of Hungary. She could play 3 times better, but she is not using a forehand topspin and she is a profi of course she knows how to do a forehand topspin...
 
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If i see that the both Li's could win gold and silver, that is what makes me cry. Not because they are chinese but that they can win with their playstyle. That shows that woman tabletennis has problems. They are not able to break out of their cage and adapt so they can overcome this. The top-european-woman players are losing to players with a style which would not have a chance in the 7. male class. But if you play a "straight" style and what they know, they are destroying you till i think 3. or second male class. I have the feeling that womans are not as good because they are not using enough their brains in table tennis and because they are "afraid" of what they dont know. A very good example is Georgina Pota of Hungary. She could play 3 times better, but she is not using a forehand topspin and she is a profi of course she knows how to do a forehand topspin...

Have you ever played against their style? It's much harder then you think. If you've had a chance to watch them live you would see why so much woman still play like this. There are plenty of them, I watched on Zagreb open one granny from Luxembourg beating Ai Fukuhara with left hand, short pips and penhold. Her name is Ni Xialian and she is a real master of table tennis.
I've also had a chance to watch Gemany's woman practising, two chinese who can hit so hard with short pips and so fast that I thought they could beat male players from top 100 haha.
There are also some male players who play this style, Like Cantero Jesus who destroyed me in men's singles, I didn't know what's happening. And also He zhiwen who is so old and still can beat some top players. Short pips are very hard to handle..
 
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You dont get my point. Im not saying that they are not skilled table tennis players. Im saying that with the skill of a Solja or a Pota it is not allowed to lose in such a manner against these kind of players. Im upset to see that these young players dont have the creativity to adapt if there is something unusual. As soon as there is somebody with pips or playing defense in an unusual way or doing out of the box shots i can see the tears in their eyes. Because they dont have the ability to adept to this out of the box style. They are losing their coolness and with it the whole games. What makes me think that instead of letting them just do ridiculous fast multiballtraining let them sit at a table and play chess or let them solve quizzes. Table tennis is still a tactics sport what the 2 Li's and the players as you said Hi Ziwen are showing. In my opinion the focus of today table tennis training in professional sport is to high on automatism and brute force. Why is Waldner called the Mozart of table tennis ? Why can Persson and Samsonov still compete? Not because they are hitting harder than everybody else. That is the reason why nobody is able to challenge the chinese. They are playing the maximum and the best when it comes to power athletics and automatism. Everybody just tries to beat them in what they are best. Like running with your head against a wall over and over again.
 
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You dont get my point. Im not saying that they are not skilled table tennis players. Im saying that with the skill of a Solja or a Pota it is not allowed to lose in such a manner against these kind of players. Im upset to see that these young players dont have the creativity to adapt if there is something unusual. As soon as there is somebody with pips or playing defense in an unusual way or doing out of the box shots i can see the tears in their eyes. Because they dont have the ability to adept to this out of the box style. They are losing their coolness and with it the whole games. What makes me think that instead of letting them just do ridiculous fast multiballtraining let them sit at a table and play chess or let them solve quizzes. Table tennis is still a tactics sport what the 2 Li's and the players as you said Hi Ziwen are showing. In my opinion the focus of today table tennis training in professional sport is to high on automatism and brute force. Why is Waldner called the Mozart of table tennis ? Why can Persson and Samsonov still compete? Not because they are hitting harder than everybody else. That is the reason why nobody is able to challenge the chinese. They are playing the maximum and the best when it comes to power athletics and automatism. Everybody just tries to beat them in what they are best. Like running with your head against a wall over and over again.

Excellent point. Did you actually know there is a few chess players who also play pretty good tabletennis and vice versa?
Waldner's unique style is sorely missed.
 
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You dont get my point. Im not saying that they are not skilled table tennis players. Im saying that with the skill of a Solja or a Pota it is not allowed to lose in such a manner against these kind of players. Im upset to see that these young players dont have the creativity to adapt if there is something unusual. As soon as there is somebody with pips or playing defense in an unusual way or doing out of the box shots i can see the tears in their eyes. Because they dont have the ability to adept to this out of the box style. They are losing their coolness and with it the whole games. What makes me think that instead of letting them just do ridiculous fast multiballtraining let them sit at a table and play chess or let them solve quizzes. Table tennis is still a tactics sport what the 2 Li's and the players as you said Hi Ziwen are showing. In my opinion the focus of today table tennis training in professional sport is to high on automatism and brute force. Why is Waldner called the Mozart of table tennis ? Why can Persson and Samsonov still compete? Not because they are hitting harder than everybody else. That is the reason why nobody is able to challenge the chinese. They are playing the maximum and the best when it comes to power athletics and automatism. Everybody just tries to beat them in what they are best. Like running with your head against a wall over and over again.

solving quiz tests won't make anyone better at handling different playing styles, practicing against those styles will. short pip hitters are rare in modern table tennis and as such it's normal that they create problems for even high ranked players. you can know the theory all you want but table tennis is mostly a game of repetition. you can be a genius but without practice and repetition you will get nowhere.
 
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you see and this kind ouf attitude is what makes them look like beginners when they play against such people izra :). Not open for anything what is out of the box. Thanks for underlining my point. This kind of thinking is what is making the difference between being good or perhaps being a legend. Exactly this is why nobody is breaking through , "because when it's not harder faster and more of everything it cant be good". *facepalm*
 
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you see and this kind ouf attitude is what makes them look like beginners when they play against such people izra :). Not open for anything what is out of the box. Thanks for underlining my point. This kind of thinking is what is making the difference between being good or perhaps being a legend. Exactly this is why nobody is breaking through , "because when it's not harder faster and more of everything it cant be good". *facepalm*


That's not izra's point. When you play a certain style, you usually get good at playing at style against other people. Table tennis is like chess, but good chess players are not even that creative - what they are good at is memorizing lots of positions - the creativity happens at the extreme edges after their memorization of positions runs out and they have to create new ideas. Most of them need lots of time to think to do this - you don't have that time in table tennis.

In table tennis, you have very short time to react so you have to see the ball, read the ball and make a stroke. When someone is used mostly to reacting to right handed smooth topspin player, they will have trouble reacting to left-handed pips penholder with knuckleball or spin-reversal because their instincts and reactions are too tuned to inverted. Of course, since they play inverted 99% of the time, they have made the right call, and since defensive pips players give you time to react, that difference is usually okay to handle for some of the players who have had practice against choppers. But the pips hitters are a nightmare unless the pros have practiced.

Even you yourself, are you saying you play well against pips-out players at your level without practicing against it? Or any surface? If you do, you are one special player when it comes to reading spin.
 
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you see and this kind ouf attitude is what makes them look like beginners when they play against such people izra :). Not open for anything what is out of the box. Thanks for underlining my point. This kind of thinking is what is making the difference between being good or perhaps being a legend. Exactly this is why nobody is breaking through , "because when it's not harder faster and more of everything it cant be good". *facepalm*

your kind of attitude is why europe is so far behind china. talent and brains alone can't do much against hard work. waldner is often taken as an example of when talent beat hard work, but besides being talented that guy practiced roughly as much as the chinese when he was young and he even went to practice IN CHINA WITH THE CHINESE when he was a boy.

the top chinese players deliberately practice against all kinds of playing styles, immitating the likes of boll and joo sae hyuk. sometimes the chinese national B squad players are let out to play tournaments and they destroy almost everyone with their speed and skill, but then someone like masato shiono comes up and they don't stand a chance. why do you think this is? because the B squad players are stupid and ma long and zhang jike are smart? no, it's because the A squad players are trained for different styles while B squad are not.
 
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