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Arttè

Italian handcrafted Arttè
 

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Darker Imperial Hinoki 2020 (Darker Speed 90 with an 'Imperial' stamp for $120 more)

Purchased a few weeks ago a new member to the family... Darker Imperial Hinoki 2020. I already had one and love it, and wanted to get a second as a backup for tournaments. As happy as I am with the first, I am equally disappointed with the second.

Darker Speed pride themselves on the quality of their blades, and this one is supposed to excel in that area. Having said that, this blade is at best a mediocre Darker Speed 90 with an 'Imperial' stamp on it to charge the additional $120 over the cost of a DS 90. Darker should never have let this one leave their factory, and TableTennis11 should not have sold it, but rather returned it to Darker. I trusted TT11 when they said that it was of the highest quality and had gone through a rigorous quality control process. Oh well, lesson learned. Now I have 2 Darker Speed 90's, 1 Darker Imperial Hinoki 2020, and one so-so Darker Speed 90 that Darker determined was somehow worth an additional $120 and stamped 'Imperial' on it.
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Purchased a few weeks ago a new member to the family... Darker Speed Imperial 2020. I already had one and love it, and wanted to get a second as a backup for tournaments. As happy as I am with the first, I am equally disappointed with the second.

Darker Speed pride themselves on the quality of their blades, and this one is supposed to excel in that area. Having said that, this blade is at best a mediocre Darker Speed 90 with an 'Imperial' stamp on it to charge the additional $120 over the cost of a DS 90. Darker should never have let this one leave their factory, and TableTennis11 should not have sold it, but rather returned it to Darker. I trusted TT11 when they said that it was of the highest quality and had gone through a rigorous quality control process. Oh well, lesson learned. Now I have 2 Darker Speed 90's, 1 Darker Speed Imperial 2020, and one so-so Darker Speed 90 that Darker determined was somehow worth an additional $120 and stamped 'Imperial' on it.
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Why are you saying "Darker Speed Imperial Hinoki"? The brand is Darker. "Darker Speed 90" is a blade. It looks like the blade pictured above is called "Darker Imperial Hinoki". No "Speed" in the name that I can see.

And what about the recent blade you don't like as much do you feel is the problem?
 
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Why are you saying "Darker Speed Imperial Hinoki"? The brand is Darker. "Darker Speed 90" is a blade. It looks like the blade pictured above is called "Darker Imperial Hinoki". No "Speed" in the name that I can see.

And what about the recent blade you don't like as much do you feel is the problem?

You're right. I have edited the post. Thanks.

The quality of my other 1 ply Darker blades have all been top notch. As a result, the one area that can differentiate a DS 90 from the Imperial would be the selection and quality of the Hinoki chosen. The wood grain of my 2 DS 90's are actually superior to this blade. That's why I say that it is basically an average DS 90.

It would have been fine if they would have just sold it as a DS 90, but to charge a premium and say it is superior to a DS 90, I'd like to know how...
 
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You're right. I have edited the post. Thanks.

The quality of my other 1 ply Darker blades have all been top notch. As a result, the one area that can differentiate a DS 90 from the Imperial would be the selection and quality of the Hinoki chosen. The wood grain of my 2 DS 90's are actually superior to this blade. That's why I say that it is basically an average DS 90.

It would have been fine if they would have just sold it as a DS 90, but to charge a premium and say it is superior to a DS 90, I'd like to know how...

Is it playing characteristics that make you feel that? Or is it what the wood looks like?

Aren't the Speed 90 and the Imperial Hinoki slightly different blades?

There are lots of blades by Butterfly that are almost the same but one costs more. TB Spirit, TB ALC, ZJK ALC, Viscaria, they are all very close to the same blade. But the prices are different. What made you get the Imperial Hinoki when it costs more if you wanted a Speed 90?

Wood is variable. It once was living. If you take 20 of the same blade, each blade will feel slightly or more than slightly different. Quality control can tell you if the materials are acceptable; if there are any manufacturing defects, if there was a defect in the wood. But if the wood is good, and there are no defects, then the issues you have with the blade probably amount to the differences is in different pieces of wood.

Is the current blade heavier, lighter, or about the same weight as the other Darker One Plies you have? The weight may be what is bothering you.
 
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Is it playing characteristics that make you feel that? Or is it what the wood looks like?

Aren't the Speed 90 and the Imperial Hinoki slightly different blades?

There are lots of blades by Butterfly that are almost the same but one costs more. TB Spirit, TB ALC, ZJK ALC, Viscaria, they are all very close to the same blade. But the prices are different. What made you get the Imperial Hinoki when it costs more if you wanted a Speed 90?

Speed 90 and Imperial Hinoki 2020 are basically the same blade. The only difference would be the quality of the Kiso Hinoki chosen. The quality can be measured a few different ways: age of the tree used, width of the growth rings, do they stay consistent or is one side larger than the other... Where this is the only difference between a DS 90 and Imperial, it should be visible that it is a better selection of Kiso Hinoki used in the making of the Imperial blade. This is the case with my other Imperial blade, so I expected the same with this one.

I didn’t want another Speed 90. Had I known that that is what it was going to be, I wouldn’t have bought it. I actually wanted a second Imperial to perfectly match my first. My other Imperial is 90 grams. I ordered an Imperial that was 89 grams, as close as I could get. When they were putting the rubbers on, they said that they noticed it had a defect and the only other one with a straight handle that they had was this 85 gram blade. So I took it, not knowing if they would get more in. For years Darker had stopped selling the DS 90 due to a shortage of Kiso Hinoki wood.
 
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Speed 90 and Imperial Hinoki 2020 are basically the same blade. The only difference would be the quality of the Kiso Hinoki chosen. The quality can be measured a few different ways: age of the tree used, width of the growth rings, do they stay consistent or is one side larger than the other... Where this is the only difference between a DS 90 and Imperial, it should be visible that it is a better selection of Kiso Hinoki used in the making of the Imperial blade. This is the case with my other Imperial blade, so I expected the same with this one.

I didn’t want another Speed 90. Had I known that that is what it was going to be, I wouldn’t have bought it. I actually wanted a second Imperial to perfectly match my first. My other Imperial is 90 grams. I ordered an Imperial that was 89 grams, as close as I could get. When they were putting the rubbers on, they said that they noticed it had a defect and the only other one with a straight handle that they had was this 85 gram blade. So I took it, not knowing if they would get more in. For years Darker had stopped selling the DS 90 due to a shortage of Kiso Hinoki wood.

What is the defect? If there is a defect, how did it pass the quality control standards?

Did you really choose to buy a blade that expensive knowing it had a defect?

Wood is wood. The higher quality thing that Darker is claiming for the Imperial, wouldn't that be a marketing thing?

In the end, the real thing that is important is how the blade plays. But you can't tell that unless you test it. And unfortunately wood is not a constant.
 
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What is the defect? If there is a defect, how did it pass the quality control standards?

Did you really choose to buy a blade that expensive knowing it had a defect?

Wood is wood. The higher quality thing that Darker is claiming for the Imperial, wouldn't that be a marketing thing?

In the end, the real thing that is important is how the blade plays. But you can't tell that unless you test it. And unfortunately wood is not a constant.

The blade I originally chose (89g) had the defect. TT11 said that they discovered the defect when they were putting the rubbers on, so they didn’t ship that one to me.

I bought the only other one they had (85g) instead. It doesn’t have a physical defect, it’s just made out of an inferior selection of Kiso Hinoki wood, based on the wood grain.

I totally agree with you, in that for this particular racket, stamping on ‘Imperial’ and selling it for $120 over normal cost was just a marketing thing.

I bought it, so that’s on me. The main reason I posted this is I didn’t want someone else spending the extra money thinking they would get something different or special in some way.
 
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The blade I originally chose (89g) had the defect. TT11 said that they discovered the defect when they were putting the rubbers on, so they didn’t ship that one to me.

I bought the only other one they had (85g) instead. It doesn’t have a physical defect, it’s just made out of an inferior selection of Kiso Hinoki wood, based on the wood grain.

I totally agree with you, in that for this particular racket, stamping on ‘Imperial’ and selling it for $120 over normal cost was just a marketing thing.

I bought it, so that’s on me. The main reason I posted this is I didn’t want someone else spending the extra money thinking they would get something different or special in some way.

Yeah. So, two things:

1) Simply saying, the Imperial and the Speed 90 are so close to the same that you would not recommend someone getting the Imperial because it is not worth the extra price, would suffice.

2) If the Imperial that you got that you are not satisfied with was 5 grams lighter than the others, then that might explain what is causing it to seem different than the others.

But that does not mean it is inferior wood. It just means the wood is lighter. And we really don't know what Darker is basing their judgements on wood quality are. You seem to have your own way of deciding what the wood quality is.

But the most curious thing is, you bought one Imperial, and decided you wanted a second Imperial before you decided that it was not worth an extra $120 for the Imperial.

Can you show side by side photos that show why you are saying the 85 gram Imperial is not up to your quality standards? Because, in the photo of the blade shown above, I am not seeing why you would decide that based on the grain.
 
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Yeah. So, two things:

1) Simply saying, the Imperial and the Speed 90 are so close to the same that you would not recommend someone getting the Imperial because it is not worth the extra price, would suffice.

That nicely sums it up. It's absolutely in no way different than a Darker Speed 90, other than being stamped 'Imperial'.

2) If the Imperial that you got that you are not satisfied with was 5 grams lighter than the others, then that might explain what is causing it to seem different than the others.

I didn't mention that it played different. All my comments were about the quality of the Kiso Hinoki wood chosen for this blade.
With Darker 1 ply blades, it's all about the wood grain. Here is a comment from one long time user that somewhat summarizes why:


"The density of the grain is where it is all at. Suggests really old trees and that is where the rarity comes in. That is also one of the factors effecting how the wood plays. It becomes faster as it ages, but still retains the soft touch. It also becomes less prone to water damage, or cracking right down the middle the more it ages.
The straightness of the grain suggests that it is perfectly quarter sawn. Quarter sawing is what makes the plate susceptible to cracking right down the middle but it is also the best way to cut it to make the blade."

Whether or not the density of the grain affects in a perceivable way the actual playing characteristics can certainly be debated. Having said that, the resale value of a Darker 1 ply blade is very much tied to the wood grain of the blade. Much can be determined by the annual rings on the blade. If they are tight on one side but expand as they go to the other side, it indicates where in the tree it was taken from. Same with if it is tight in the center and expands out both ways. Also the density of the wood grain is important. All of these are indicators of the age and quality of the wood chosen. This was discussed in an earlier thread actually on this forum (
Hinoki deeper study (tabletennisdaily.com) that you shared in.

But that does not mean it is inferior wood. It just means the wood is lighter. And we really don't know what Darker is basing their judgements on wood quality are. You seem to have your own way of deciding what the wood quality is.

I'm fine with it being 85g and was not implying that it's weight made it inferior. I was just hoping to get one the same weight. During the day I change rackets (not during a match) as the handle gets wet from sweat, so I like to have a second racket that is as close as possible to being the same so it's easy to change.

But the most curious thing is, you bought one Imperial, and decided you wanted a second Imperial before you decided that it was not worth an extra $120 for the Imperial.

My other Imperial blade is definitely superior to my Darker Speed 90 blades, although I still love my DS 90 blades. What is superior is the Kiso Hinoki used to make it, based on the details described above. After my extremely positive first purchase, I assumed that Darker were using the best Kiso Hinoki they had to build the Imperial blades, and that is why I purchased a second.

Can you show side by side photos that show why you are saying the 85 gram Imperial is not up to your quality standards? Because, in the photo of the blade shown above, I am not seeing why you would decide that based on the grain.

I don't have photos of my other blades without the rubber on them. Sorry. There are examples that can be searched online though.

This is a ton of words just to say: If you would like to get one for a personal collection, then go for it. If you want one thinking that it will be in some way different than a Darker Speed 90, you might want to rethink that. And that's just my personal opinion. I didn't want to start a controversy or debate, just share my experience in case it would help someone else.
 
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With the way slow-growing Kiso Hinoki(~300 years) getting chopped down and used for such "consumption" purpose, I honestly feel relieved the J-pen style is falling into oblivion. Not all that different from Blue Whales getting hunted down in the name of "scientific research"...
 
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I don't have photos of my other blades without the rubber on them. Sorry. There are examples that can be searched online though.

This is a ton of words just to say: If you would like to get one for a personal collection, then go for it. If you want one thinking that it will be in some way different than a Darker Speed 90, you might want to rethink that. And that's just my personal opinion. I didn't want to start a controversy or debate, just share my experience in case it would help someone else.

What I was actually trying to do was to get you to be as clear and specific as possible about what the actual problem was.

Like, with the photo you have of the blade, maybe you could show what you feel makes this wood inferior, or not the superior product you were hoping for and expecting.
 
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Is that the Neubauer edge tape with a Stiga edge tape on top?

Good eye! :-D

I actually put Stiga edge tape on the blade, put the Neubauer over that as it sticks better to the tape than the blade, and then cover it with another layer of Stiga edge tape as I'm not a fan of the blue color. Haha

I really like using the Neubauer edge tape as it protects the blade. 1 ply blades are more delicate and prone to splitting, but in the years I have been using them, I haven't had a single one split on me. I think the foam edge tape has helped.
 
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Good eye! :-D

I actually put Stiga edge tape on the blade, put the Neubauer over that as it sticks better to the tape than the blade, and then cover it with another layer of Stiga edge tape as I'm not a fan of the blue color. Haha

I really like using the Neubauer edge tape as it protects the blade. 1 ply blades are more delicate and prone to splitting, but in the years I have been using them, I haven't had a single one split on me. I think the foam edge tape has helped.

I have similar issues with foamies not sticking. I just use water based glue on the tape though.
 
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