General dislike of LP's?

Der_Echte said:

I would need to have to take 5x20 min lessons a week for two years straight (and play a lot of practice matches and specific practice with higher level players) before I reach 2100 level I think.

Click to expand...

It might be true, but because you were good against his pips he said that. His exact words were: "woe, Carl, your friend it good. He's like 2100!"

But don't worry. One time he played me with his hardbat and I was crushing the ball on him and he said I was playing 1800-1900 and I am not that level either. Hahaha. I just like playing against pips because you can control things if you go at their pips. You control what they can put on your ball. So if you use your brain you can play well against them.

And I love when I see a pips player start twiddling to the smooth rubber to receive serves because I know that means I got inside their head.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I like making pips players put my serves into the net and have them look at their bat & wonder what went wrong.

LPs have friction and to some extent, you still gotta read the spin. Once I get them to put it into the net a few times, then it is duck season / rabbit season for the NO-SPIN serve to really some high balls or long balls to open up against.

I suspect Carl is indeed very at home vs a hardbat player... until that hardbat player starts to make fast dead flat shots deep to his middle... NO ONE likes to be pressured that way.

Robert The Master Chen would simply bump the ball back or chop it weakly inviting an attack, presumably to get me to spin it more so he could chop it heavier. He didn't count on my BH slap shot or my heavy wide FH hook shot that tails away from him. Not a lot of 1800-1900 players can do both of those shots to that level of spin, speed, and landing percentage, that is another thing that prolly fooled him on my playing level. I got a lot of shots that are way more developed than the average of players who play my level, but I also have weaknesses that players 1800-1900 do not have or am weaker in those ones than they are.

Abe Gold isn't gunna be fooled too much by pips play, he knows what to do and has his own way to make points too.

I have played with LP 0X for 4 years. I have found that about half the people don't like playing against LPs. There are a few LP players at the club but most chop. Chopping seems to be acceptable. There aren't any LP 0X push blockers but me but since I have been taking lessons I have been playing double inverted so when I get out my LPs to screw up an opponent it is a shock. The main goal is to make the other guy adapt to my game rather than have the other guy force his game on me.

Learning how to play with LP without a coach takes a while because a lot that happens is counter intuitive. A LP coach can teach a lot in one lesson that will takes months or years to figure out on your own.

Der Echte says he would serve strong under spin to the LP players LPs. If the LP player doesn't know what he is doing the results will be exactly has Der Echte says. The trick is to bump the serve back trying not to bend the pips. That means don't open the paddle or move the paddle tangentially to the path of the ball. If the pips are bent the friction between the ball and pips will increase and go into the net like Der Echte says. If the pips don't bend the contact will be relatively frictionless and the ball will go back with strong top spin so the ball can be "bumped" rather aggressively. The LP players must have faith that the ball will go over the net and drop. If Der Echte serves a no spin ball the LP stroke must be more cautious because the no spin return will tend to float. These balls are just as happy to float long as go on the table. I don't like short dead balls when playing with LPs. I think serving short is much more effective because the LP player must hit the ball up over the net. There will be no spin so if the ball is high it will be easy to attack or at least hit deep the LP players BH so he must move back quickly to make a good shot.

High balls to the LP players BH always a problem unless the LP player can twiddle or move to his BH side to use his FH.

Pip bending is the "wild card". Hard enough for the LP player to get it right. It is harder for the opponent.

Balls that are hit hard with LPs usually end the point right there one way or another.

The biggest difference between playing with frictionless anti and LPs is that Anti doesn't have pips that bend so is more consistent. Anti usually has a dead sponge that can slow down faster impacts. Return fast loops with LPs requires "soft hands"

Pnachtwey said:

The biggest difference between playing with frictionless anti and LPs is that Anti doesn't have pips that bend so is more consistent. Anti usually has a dead sponge that can slow down faster impacts. Return fast loops with LPs requires "soft hands"

Click to expand...

Yep. And getting to know how to contact the ball so the pips bend or don't bend depending on what effect you are trying to create is part of the art that makes a good pips player.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree with Pnachtwey that you gotta get it "right" more when the ball is short and you are trying to return it short. That doesn't take away from the effectiveness of a fast and sudden deep heavy underspin serve either though. The art of serving is making the opponent mis-read your spin, at first it is making them entirely mis-read the type of spin, then when they are more accustomed to the serves it is about making them mis-read the amount of spin.

Carl will tell you I can do this vs inverted and pips players alike. OX SP is pretty darned easy to receive serves with a light chop and R. Chen kept giving it to me higher and longer than he wanted. An OX player has to really quickly receive my serves off the bounce with medium pace to the middle to give me any problems to disrupt me.

Here is the classic web article for understanding pips:

http://www.gregsttpages.com/articles3/53-articles/long-pimples/87-long-pimples-for-beginners

I had a shared 2 hour lesson with Sean O'Neil once. Sean impressed me with how he could spin and hit the ball hard enough so that the spin would bend my long pips and return the ball high or long. In this case the only defense I had with LP is to make a chopping motion so that the tangential paddle speed matched the surface spin of the ball so there would be no net bending force on my pips. This kept my returns from going high or long but it is much different from what most LP push blockers do. The point is that if the looper is good enough he can make the LP push blocker adapt to the looper's game.

I have seen 2000+ players fail miserably to 1600-1700 players. I have seen 1800+ players do well against LP 0X. I think the real issue is experience.

BTW, I don't agree with Greg that LPs are predictable. Anti is predictable but LP pips bend or may not bend. It is hard for the LP player to get it right all the time let alone his opponent. Too many times I have let my pips bend by making a chopping or push stroke only to have the ball and pips grab the pips resulting in the ball going into the net for no apparent reason. I now know the right stroke is to bump the under spin ball back without bending the pips and getting full spin reversal. I don't think this is intuitive for LP players and especially not for the opponents.

Korean ladies, just over 1/2 of them, use a VERY fast OFF++ blade (think Schlager Carbon) with an inverted control rubber on FH and Grass D-Techs on BH in OX. Their standard response to underspin is to punch the ball to create a light topspin drive and place it in an unexpected spot, like the wide FH line or middle. This is trained so much it is an instinct. They are unusually good at this and can cause extreme havoc for anyone not used to this. The caches do not get into the pips bending thing, they are taught to punch aggressively with a forward punch locked wrist tight grip. There are some really advanced techniques for the O1800 crowd that involve a looser wrist and much more wrist snap and difficult timing. The simple locked wrist punch has few moving parts and is reliable under pressure.

Korean OX LP punch blockers also handle deep no spin with their pips and practice bumping it back to each other 30-60 minutes a day. They know how to handle that shot too and stay in the rally.

Having said all that, a really good server can really give them fits if they cannot read the spin. bat angles are still important, even if the base angle is perpendicular to table. Timing of impact in the zone is important too, so if they do not predict the placement well, they are not very confident to punch aggressively (which would overcome some of the problem of the spin if the punch at or over net height).

Korean LP OX punch blockers can block smash balls like clockwork, but spin it up very shallow or deep and it is a new world for them. They are accustomed to bang bang FH to FH exchanges and the sudden fast ball to their pips. Spin it heavy and watch their landing rate and confidence go down the drain.

Another tactic is when they are expecting a short serve (your last 2-3 were short) you serve sudden deep side/top to their OX pips and get a no-spin ball back high/deep to smash or loop kill OR they bump it out long. Once you can confuse them on what you will do and mess with their perception of how to receive the serve, then you are boss on serve.

Some players can be really unpredictable with their OX LP returns, the arm slot and movement can be un-natural and you really have to look at how the ball flies in air and kicks on your side or not. They can really mess up your sense of timing by producing a ball that is not what their stroke looks like, so players gotta be aware too.

Wobbling effect - this is something to discuss. Some rubbers have huge disturb effect and this is not fair in my opinion. When we talk about modern table tennis we know the discussion is about the spin and understanding it. That is why more then 10 years ago the rules about the serve has changed. Now everything should be clear. So when I see my opponent how he touch the ball I should expect following spin. But with some OX LP rubbers this can be different and strange. Of course this is not the problem for advanced and regular players who train a lot in clubs. But we should also notice amateurs who play just for fun. I can give you many examples when some amateur changed the BH rubber into OX LP and started to win easily with his friends who had inverted rubbers.

Sali said:

Wobbling effect - this is something to discuss. Some rubbers have huge disturb effect and this is not fair in my opinion. When we talk about modern table tennis we know the discussion is about the spin and understanding it. That is why more then 10 years ago the rules about the serve has changed. Now everything should be clear. So when I see my opponent how he touch the ball I should expect following spin. But with some OX LP rubbers this can be different and strange. Of course this is not the problem for advanced and regular players who train a lot in clubs. But we should also notice amateurs who play just for fun. I can give you many examples when some amateur changed the BH rubber into OX LP and started to win easily with his friends who had inverted rubbers.

Click to expand...

So what stops the friend from using LP OX ?

ALL pips and anti rubbers are crutches for TT weaklings not fit to be 2 wing topspin crazy attacking TTWarriors.

Haha... that is what more than a few sinscerely think and it cracks me up.

Sali said:

Wobbling effect - this is something to discuss. Some rubbers have huge disturb effect and this is not fair in my opinion.

Click to expand...

What force causes the disturbing effect? There is no force that LPs can generate that inverted can't. After the ball leaves the paddle the paddle has no more influence on the ball.

It is TT manufacturers that use the term disturbing to make their LPs seem more effective than they really are.

LPs aren't the same. It is hard for non-pip players to keep track of the different characteristics of the different LPs. Often you just have to play a bit and adapt.

I feel like it is so funny whenever people claim switch to long pip can cheat win the game.

We have one handicapped player, real handicapped and he did participated in south east asia Paralympic region. Thr first time he go china train, the coach suggest him to switch to long pip on bh since he like to play close to table block. I remember that me and two more players whole know how long pip work, we beat him like a cake, while other amateur player keep lost to him. But when times go by, he trained and become more consistent, then it is very hard for us to win a whole match without performing constantly. Usually the best of 5 will end by 3-2, on whichever side.

So true story is, if you lose to long pip it just because your skill still not there

Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk

Pnachtwey said:

What force causes the disturbing effect? There is no force that LPs can generate that inverted can't. After the ball leaves the paddle the paddle has no more influence on the ball.

It is TT manufacturers that use the term disturbing to make their LPs seem more effective than they really are.

LPs aren't the same. It is hard for non-pip players to keep track of the different characteristics of the different LPs. Often you just have to play a bit and adapt.

Click to expand...

Of course it is hard to explain, here you have some nice explanation: http://www.gregsttpages.com/articles3/53-articles/long-pimples/115-why-do-long-pimples-wobble
Anyway of course it is the spin from inverted rubber. The biggest problem is with amateurs or low level players, they use too much sidespin and this is never good choice against long pipmples if you are skilled enough.

Gather round the fire, it's story time!

In an insignificant land, in a forgotten table tennis hall, there are two players. They are amateur players, who haven't yet unlocked the secrets of the game. They both have a decent forehand drive (as it is more natural to learn) and they both have problems when the ball is on their backhand side. Also, both have problems reading and understanding incoming spin, so they are both making a lot of mistakes and giving easy points.

One of them in an unpredictable turn of events, changes his backhand to LP. TA-DAAA!! He suddenly doesn't have to worry so much about incoming spin or speed. Now our 'villain' can put the ball in the table with more consistency, so he can focus more on placement, and also gains confidence in his game. Also, the balls that our 'hero' with inverted on both sides is getting, are something entirely different than what he is used to.

So now the 'villain' is consistently beating the 'hero', without any real increase on his level of technique or overall progression of his game. That's why, at some point our hero can't take it any more and exclaims "You only beat me because of that #$!$!$#% rubber! You are cheating because you can't play real table tennis!".

Of course, our hero's statement is only half true. Yes, his opponent's change of rubber was the most significant factor to his sudden improved effectiveness, but that doesn't mean that it is cheating nor that it is not real table tennis. Ok maybe it feels a bit like cheating, as half of the times the villain doesn't even know what he is doing with his LP, yet that incredibly works in his favour as it confuses the hero even more.

Time passes, and with more training, the hero who is of pure heart, slowly unlocks the hidden knowledge of spin in table tennis. He can now read spin better, produce more spin, and is able to exploit the weaknesses of the villains LP backhand side... and finally beats him! The evil is defeated, the universe is saved, the force is being brought balance to (<-- not sure about the syntax in that one! ), the hero gets the girl (who was secretly admired him but ignored him in order to have motivation to realise his true potential and other such cliches), and everything is right and well!

End of story... or not?

Because now the villain, disgraced and alone, vows to revenge and... ok ok, I get it, I'll stop now, no need to threaten me!

The point of this little semi autobiographical story, is that for amateur players it is easier to play with LP, as they have less variables to think about while it is considerably harder to play against LP, as it involves concepts that are unlikely to be in a beginners training. That's why you hear mostly amateurs complaining about it. With time you learn to deal with it, and start to appreciate the brain tease and the diversity different types of rubbers (or playing styles) are bringing to the game!

Great post, absolutely true. I would just add one thing. Your "villain" got some easy points, but when he has to face much better opponent, his LP will be his weakness and if he do not work hard, he will be easy scalp. Everyone who is really good with LP will tell you that LP demands more work then inverted rubber.

Well, when i should play with LP then?

I have always difficulties with spinney serves so i was thinking to use LP or MP or even SP to make less issue with that.

Also, i have one opponent who is playing with pips out, sometimes short and sometimes long, we are almost in equal levels but he has some advantages because he came back to play before me and he has coaching, his style is really easy but very very tricky, i defeat him when i am very offensive and my strokes are more accurate, but many times i am off mood and i can't do my strokes, but there is one main thing that make him always in charge and better, his patience!!! I try to kill many shots quickly as he gave me many easy balls but i lose those balls quickly due to my rush, i saw him playing against many skilled offensive inverted rubbers players, he has no chance to win against them, and i also defeated him when i understood his style, but again, i make him to win when i am not in form against him and he return all my serves actually.

Sali said:

Great post, absolutely true. I would just add one thing. Your "villain" got some easy points, but when he has to face much better opponent, his LP will be his weakness and if he do not work hard, he will be easy scalp. Everyone who is really good with LP will tell you that LP demands more work then inverted rubber.

Click to expand...

Very true, but then you don't usually hear much better players complaining about LP!

And I guess if you want to play on a higher level, you have to put in a lot of work, regardless of rubbers or playing style. One thing is definitely certain. Playing on a higher level, LP does not give you advantage out of the blue, as you said it yourself it might need more work than inverted rubber to play really well!

TareqPhoto said:

Well, when i should play with LP then?

I have always difficulties with spinney serves so i was thinking to use LP or MP or even SP to make less issue with that.

Also, i have one opponent who is playing with pips out, sometimes short and sometimes long, we are almost in equal levels but he has some advantages because he came back to play before me and he has coaching, his style is really easy but very very tricky, i defeat him when i am very offensive and my strokes are more accurate, but many times i am off mood and i can't do my strokes, but there is one main thing that make him always in charge and better, his patience!!! I try to kill many shots quickly as he gave me many easy balls but i lose those balls quickly due to my rush, i saw him playing against many skilled offensive inverted rubbers players, he has no chance to win against them, and i also defeated him when i understood his style, but again, i make him to win when i am not in form against him and he return all my serves actually.

Click to expand...

I think you just gave yourself a possible answer. You need to work on your patience and consistency, to be able to play your alpha game more.

In the end of the day, we are not professionals (not all of us at least! ), so it comes down to personal preference and what makes you have more fun! If you think that switching to LP (or SP or anti) will make you enjoy the game more, then give it a shot!