How to counter long pips push blocker?

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Hi everyone,
At the club i play at, there is this 1 long pips player that just keeps on pushing. When i play against him, he often serves short or long with no spin. When i loop, he just keeps his paddle still, blocking back with heavy back spin. When i push back, he will just push block to my back hand. Since my backhand is not as good as my forehand, i don't normally backhand topspin as my backhand isn't that good yet. I will often push back with topspin but then he will keep on pushing back to my backhand as i can't attack. If i step to the left to try to loop, he just whacks the ball with his forehand. Any tips how to deal with these pushblockers. Also, when losing points, he often will criticize me saying "You don't hit the ball each time", when as an attacker, you are to loop each time.
 
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I would say break down and learn how to loop with your backhand. Have someone feed you bucket after bucket of backspin to your backhand until you can loop any backspin ball with decent power with your backhand.

If you can't loop those shots with your backhand think of it as if this guy is just showing you what you need to improve and work on.

Now get to work.


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First, you need to familiarize yourself with Greg Lett's explanation of how LP work. This is an invaluable primer on demystifying LPs.
http://www.gregsttpages.com/articles3/53-articles/long-pimples/87-long-pimples-for-beginners

Second, each time your opponent push-blocks your previous underspin push to your BH, the ball will not have underspin anymore. It will probably have some kind of mild topspin or even no spin. So try to anticipate this and drive the ball.

Finally, learn to play patiently. You don't have to attack only with super heavy topspin FH loops. Learn how to vary spin when looping from FH - a long deep "heavy nospin" loop into the pimples could prove difficult for him to return.
 
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Push then attack

Hi everyone,
At the club i play at, there is this 1 long pips player that just keeps on pushing. When i play against him, he often serves short or long with no spin. When i loop, he just keeps his paddle still, blocking back with heavy back spin. When i push back, he will just push block to my back hand. Since my backhand is not as good as my forehand, i don't normally backhand topspin as my backhand isn't that good yet. I will often push back with topspin but then he will keep on pushing back to my backhand as i can't attack. If i step to the left to try to loop, he just whacks the ball with his forehand. Any tips how to deal with these pushblockers. Also, when losing points, he often will criticize me saying "You don't hit the ball each time", when as an attacker, you are to loop each time.
Push with your BH to his pips but never push 2 in a row. Your push will come back with top spin that you can attack in a normal way. Keep thinking push then attack.

The other way is to simply get the ball back. If the LP pusher doesn't hit the ball off the bounce the all will bounce up about 80% of the height from which he hit the ball. Try hitting a high ball to the LP players BH and see if he can hit hit. If not the ball will bounce back high so you can attack.

A LP player must be able to attack balls with his LP as if he is playing with a hard bat. If not he is lost.
 
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I would say that a BH capable of bot extreme spin and smash speed will be your best friend.

When he serves long and flat, do a 50% power stroke lifting/brushing to make a very heavy ball land deep near endline. That is troubling. When he serves short, he is trying to get you to step in and NOT move back in time. He is likely trying to get you with a deep push or drive while you are still stuck to table. be sure to push off with your step in foot right as you impact the ball, you will be ready to rumble.

If your BH is not yet ready to do a heavy spin shot and a fast drive, then it is a good idea to develop that.

As a recreational player back in teh day, at the Army camp there was this guy who chopped back everything light spin and I could not BH attack it to save my life. I bought Larry Hodges Steps to Success TT book and it really showed me what I needed to do to learn a looping and attacking BH. That saves a lot of footwork.

Personally, a pushblocker doesn't trouble me at all. Smart hardbat players who play at a high level deservedly can do a lot of stuff to trouble people, but I get by just fine. That varied flexible BH attack is the JOKER in the deck and a lifesaver vs them. They know they will pay a price if they try to rally fast to my BH, they know they will pay a price if they play slow to my BH. If they give me a ball to my FH I can hookshot it to get them out of position and if it comes back, teh BH line is wide open enough to drive a large truck through it.

The Korean pushblockers HATE heavy spin and HATE my serves.

So, if I could say two things, I would say grow that attacking BH and learn to serve/attack effectively. Those are two good friends vs ANY player.
 
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I would say that a BH capable of bot extreme spin and smash speed will be your best friend.

When he serves long and flat, do a 50% power stroke lifting/brushing to make a very heavy ball land deep near endline. That is troubling. When he serves short, he is trying to get you to step in and NOT move back in time. He is likely trying to get you with a deep push or drive while you are still stuck to table. be sure to push off with your step in foot right as you impact the ball, you will be ready to rumble.

If your BH is not yet ready to do a heavy spin shot and a fast drive, then it is a good idea to develop that.

As a recreational player back in teh day, at the Army camp there was this guy who chopped back everything light spin and I could not BH attack it to save my life. I bought Larry Hodges Steps to Success TT book and it really showed me what I needed to do to learn a looping and attacking BH. That saves a lot of footwork.

Personally, a pushblocker doesn't trouble me at all. Smart hardbat players who play at a high level deservedly can do a lot of stuff to trouble people, but I get by just fine. That varied flexible BH attack is the JOKER in the deck and a lifesaver vs them. They know they will pay a price if they try to rally fast to my BH, they know they will pay a price if they play slow to my BH. If they give me a ball to my FH I can hookshot it to get them out of position and if it comes back, teh BH line is wide open enough to drive a large truck through it.

The Korean pushblockers HATE heavy spin and HATE my serves.

So, if I could say two things, I would say grow that attacking BH and learn to serve/attack effectively. Those are two good friends vs ANY player.

Thanks dude. Like before, i did have a very good backhand where i would be able to loop with my backhand very well. My backhand is not very consistent with the loop anymore because i only play about twice a week. Wed and Fridays. So when i play, its like i'm a beginner and have to start to get the feeling of my racket again. Before, i used to play often every week, but due to a busy schedule, its hard to have consistency.
 
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That sounds like confidence more than anything else. Before you play the guy get someone to give you 5 min of long backspin serves to your backhand and loop all of them. Then in a match with this guy don't worry about winning and losing or making the shots. But loop whatever he pushes at your backhand. You will get the timing and the confidence. And once you do then it will be game over! [emoji2]


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Shiro,

What is your USATT rating and what is the rating of the pushblocker?

I am curious because sometimes, we make these issues about equipment when they are actually about the players. If a rated - 1300 player wanted to learn how to play against short pips, I wouldn't send him to get killed by a rated -1600 player because he is then dealing both with pips and playing level.
 
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Shiro,

What is your USATT rating and what is the rating of the pushblocker?

I am curious because sometimes, we make these issues about equipment when they are actually about the players. If a rated - 1300 player wanted to learn how to play against short pips, I wouldn't send him to get killed by a rated -1600 player because he is then dealing both with pips and playing level.

I do not have a USATT rating as i don't play competitively. The man i play against does play with rated players, but he is not rated either. I play sort of like a recreational style where i have no rating, but still try to play competitive. I cannot play competitive at the moment due to school.
 
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I do not have a USATT rating as i don't play competitively. The man i play against does play with rated players, but he is not rated either. I play sort of like a recreational style where i have no rating, but still try to play competitive. I cannot play competitive at the moment due to school.

Have you had formal coaching?

The thing is that TT, as much as it has a theory and a science to it, is a sport of action/practice. I was at a tournament yesterday where a very experienced 1800 rated short pips backhand blocker asked me how to play long pips. I will tell you what I told him (and at 1800, note that he is very experienced - he beat two pretty good inverted players rated higher than him but lost to two long pips players very easily). The one thing I unfortunately forgot to tell him was to start with lower rated players so that he could distinguish between the playing level and the equipment. But the rest is below:

"Well, the first thing is that you probably don't play them enough. Given that our styles are different, I cannot just tell you want to do and even if I did, you would still need to practice it. But I have seen you play and you have a very mature style that you could probably figure out something if you played them. This is generally how long pips work - they lack the grip of inverted and short pips, so the long pips player cannot generate spin. He also cannot cancel spin unless he punches the ball. What he will usually do is add or reduce spin with chops and lifts. Therefore, any topspin ball you send to him will come back as backspin - it will have heavy backspin if you sent in heavy topspin, but how heavy will depend on whether he chopped ( added to the spin to make it heavier) or lifted (reduced the rotation to make the backspin lighter). Same thing with backspin - if you push or chop to him, the ball will come back as topspin - if he lifts, the topspin will be decent. If he chops, the topspin will be lighter but will still be topspin. Only if he punches will he mostly kill the spin. Usually, what you do is you have to remember what you sent to the pips and then read the stroke and figure out what is coming back and design your game around that with some practice.

In general long pips have difficulty controlling no-spin balls as spin is what makes a ball controllable. They also cannot add or reduce spin on no-spin balls significantly when they can't play a full stroke off the table, so what many people do is serve fast no spin or short no spin to the pips and then attack the no-spin return with their stroke, or serve backspin and attack topspin or serve topspin and attack backspin. Me, the way I play, most pure pips blockers around or below my level can't block my spin level so I initially try to overwhelm them with strong strokes. If forced to rally, I struggle more, but I am trying to get better at playing the one push, one roll game as my topspin game tends to be better than theirs if they decide to force one so I can play this passive game and be comfortable if they attack.

But in the end, there is no substitute to playing more against them. If you play against them more, you will get better at adjusting to the ball as without that, you will be playing based on how you read inverted strokes because the brain tends to optimize itself for that which it is most familiar. In Philly, we have lots of pips players so we don't lose sleep playing them. But the players in our club who do not play a lot of pips players also struggle. That's why I laugh at players who avoid pips - the players fail to see that they struggle because they avoid those pips."
 
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This is a great post. You guys should start hitting that "like" button. That is a pretty complete answer.

I would add one thing and this is hard and takes time but it is worth trying to do. Try to watch the ball and see if you can see the spin on the ball. I can't always. I get fooled by good servers and deceptive spin but it happens less and less.

At one point Michael Landers told me he can just see the spin on the ball and I thought, "no way"! Then him and Mark Croitoroo showed me the arc of different spins on serves and told me you can get fooled by racket motion if you don't also watch the ball.

I am not perfect at it. But I am much better at it than when they showed me. So you just keep trying to see the spin too, on serves or against pips players.

One of the reasons I enjoy playing LP players, even if they are better than me is that it forces you to focus and pay attention so much more.

You have to remember what you did. You have to watch which side of the racket they used. And how they contacted the ball. And you also have to try and see the spin on the ball.

At first that will be frustrating but it gets better with practice. Topspin has more of an arc and you will miss it if you assume you are looking at backspin but if you are trying to look to see what spin is actually on the ball you are more likely to see it. Dead balls float more and backspin has a lower flatter trajectory.

Then there are the players who can make the backspin balls look like they have more or a rounded arc. But the bounce should help give that away if you watch really closely.

It is hard but it is pretty cool how, if you work on it, your brain actually just starts figuring that stuff out as you watch the ball over time.

Anyway, great post by NextLevel. Pretty complete.


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UpsideDownCarl,

Seeing the spin on the ball is in part youth at work, and it is one of those abilities that players who started as children tend to have and do not know how they acquired it. Yes, we do get better at it as we play more, but despite all the video I have filmed and watched of my own serves, it is not quite there. Pure topspin and backspin are easy - it's when you toss in the sidespin and make the topspin slow or the backspin fast that things get more complicated.

But that will not stop me from trying because if I can read serves better, that will send my serve return and level up a few more points. In some cases, if I wait long enough, I see it, but most of my serve return game is based on early aggression so I don't have returns from when I am late to the ball, so that might just have to be another bit of work...
 
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It is true that kids have an easier time with that and Mike and Mark both started as kids. But Mark really broke it down for me and showed me lots of different spins and then showed me the arc for each. And the more I work on it the better I get at seeing the degree and kind of spin on the ball.

I am 50. I was given that info when I was 48. I continue to get better at it.

But you are right, that just happens without the person thinking about it if you are playing high level with training from a young age. And it is much harder to get yourself to start seeing that when you are older. But knowing you can see the spin if you really focus does help. Our brains and senses are capable of more than we realize.

If you ever see Mark Croitoroo at a tournament, ask him for that info. Tell him I told you to. It was one of the best coaching lessons I ever received. Mark is really good at teaching certain technical stuff. It would be worth your while. Because he did something that really helped me see it better.


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It is true that kids have an easier time with that and Mike and Mark both started as kids. But Mark really broke it down for me and showed me lots of different spins and then showed me the arc for each. And the more I work on it the better I get at seeing the degree and kind of spin on the ball.

I am 50. I was given that info when I was 48. I continue to get better at it.

But you are right, that just happens without the person thinking about it if you are playing high level with training from a young age. And it is much harder to get yourself to start seeing that when you are older. But knowing you can see the spin if you really focus does help. Our brains and senses are capable of more than we realize.

If you ever see Mark Croitoroo at a tournament, ask him for that info. Tell him I told you to. It was one of the best coaching lessons I ever received. Mark is really good at teaching certain technical stuff. It would be worth your while. Because he did something that really helped me see it better.


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Smart guy - you want me to learn it so I can reteach it...

I got news for you - if I learn that, I ain't teaching nobody... so there!
:mad:

:p:p:p:p:p
 
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Smart guy - you want me to learn it so I can reteach it...

I got news for you - if I learn that, I ain't teaching nobody... so there!
:mad:

:p:p:p:p:p

Hahahaha.

I can't teach it. I don't think you have to. But you might be able to. I teach yoga not TT.

But I bet Mark can get you seeing that stuff way better. It is a lesson that, two years after, I am still using and learning from. But it made my level go up almost instantly.

There are lots of people who have really helped me get better. Mark is way up there on the list as is Mike.


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Der Echte and everyone gave good answer here. :)

I shall add,

2 useful training:
- learn to return slow ball fast and fast ball slow. No blocker can block empty ball. Blocker need fast ball to block at. :)
- learn how Wang Hao “pull” the poor chopper and other defenders in, to His main cannon. ;P Shake the blocker back and forth 1st, before sideways. :)
- unorthodox way, assuming you are right handed, learn to do push that jump / spin to the left, to force him to reach with forehand, to feed your main gun.

Note.
1st tips actually a 2 way gun, and work only if you do have good defense.


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All good stuff, two things I might add>
No-spin serve. I think of it that there's no such thing. There's always a little top or back depending on how the server strikes the ball, and it does make a difference when playing the the LP PB. I usually serve 'no-spin' with a bias to backspin so that I know the return will have a bias to topspin.
Eye on the ball. It's something that players always have to re-train themselves to do every now and then. For some reason, we get good at a certain level then get cocky and start to assume the incoming ball trajectory. This of course leads to the missed ball-edge ball-finger ball syndrome.
 
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Der Echte and everyone gave good answer here. :)

I shall add,

2 useful training:
- learn to return slow ball fast and fast ball slow. No blocker can block empty ball. Blocker need fast ball to block at. :)
- learn how Wang Hao “pull” the poor chopper and other defenders in, to His main cannon. ;P Shake the blocker back and forth 1st, before sideways. :)
- unorthodox way, assuming you are right handed, learn to do push that jump / spin to the left, to force him to reach with forehand, to feed your main gun.

Note.
1st tips actually a 2 way gun, and work only if you do have good defense.


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Thanks for the credit, but I gotta say I gave only a simple answer, because I don't want to make one of my typical long posts filled with long technical details. Ifelt the appropiate response was to point an arrow somewhere good.

NL, Carl, and others have really done the great job of the technical and philosophical stuff I didn't want to venture into.

Thanks.
 
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Steady as she goes

Thread revival

I was looking at this review of theSauer & Troeger HELLFIRE X ОХ Long Pip,but what caught my eye was the player providing the feed for the LP player. I think he was very smooth and steady thus demonstrating a technique very useful to us ordinary players

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8R17OPgp5M&feature=youtu.be
 
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