High throw vs low throw rubber (high / low arc) thoughts

Kokain · Aug 6, 2015

Guys, I wanna ask you about a debate on low throw vs high throw rubber. What are your thoughts on this matter? I had the opportunity to try some stuff out and I'm really impressed with the way the shots land and how true the rubber stays giving more consistency and predictability. I thought I will run into some disadvantages but honestly away from the table or just lifting backspin on openings I had no problem. In fact the low arc just made the return shot awesome, keeping it low and dives down like a champ from the spin also created.
With some high throw rubbers like most of the Tenergies, Bluefire M, MX-P etc... I feel like you create this high arc, it's safer to get it above the net and hit the table, but then you expose yourself to a counter power loop attack. I've had the misfortune to find this phenomena on my backhand recently where I power looped the ball diagonally but instead of landing fast and low, it end up creating this huge arc out of no where and just missed the table completely. I immediately fixed this inconsistency switching to my forehand rubber which is a medium throw.

vvk1 · Aug 6, 2015

It is the player that creates the arc, not the rubber. Learning how to "power loop" with either low/medium/high arc at will makes anyone a much better player.

NextLevel · Aug 6, 2015

I think I will quote a high level player (Paul Drinkhall) who was comparing MX-P and MX-S:

The first obvious difference between the MX-P that I use and the MX-S is the speed and spin difference. The MX-S is a tiny fraction slower, but the surface is slightly different and the sponge feels harder – but the spin it’s able to generate is really, really heavy when I’m playing my forehand topspin loop to a block. It gives me more spin from mid distance when I’m looping the ball on both my forehand and backhand, through the curve on the ball is not increased – the ball flies in a similar manner to my shots when I use the MX-P, the curve I get is similar but that’s probably more to do with my technique, the angle I hit the ball and my contact, but the spin is definitely a little greater. Remember, when it comes to the technique and contact point we all do this a little differently to each other!

The last part is the most relevant - we all do this a little differently to each other. For your contact point and technique, you may create a different effect with Tenergy 05 than I do.

Here is something another high level player (2400+) said when I (1950-2050) compared T05 and MX-S with T05 coming out on top.

Interesting discussions here. The amount of spin a player can produce with a rubber really depends on his technique. Personally I have my best performances in terms of spin and speed with medium to medium - hard rubbers. With everything softer than 42 degrees or harder than 45 degrees my performances will be lower.

Finally, variation is helpful at all levels when it comes to rallying as no single stroke fits all opponents and situations - being able to slow down to handle balls that are tricky and move at the last second is as important as being able to counter fast topspins consistently. Hence:

It is the player that creates the arc, not the rubber. Learning how to "power loop" with either low/medium/high arc at will makes anyone a much better player.

To buttress this point, I learned over time to use MX-S to create loops with arcs like Tenergy 05 though with a different and larger stroke. That said, both are extremely high grip/high spin rubbers and I wouldn't easily say the same for a less grippy rubber. No one though wants to be changing their strokes all the time, but at some point, you have to just pick the rubber that suits your intuitions, has enough grip to play at the level you want to play, and then use it to get better at playing how you want to play.

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 7, 2015

Oh no! I can already hear PNut's response to this thread!

Run Away!

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Der_Echte · Aug 7, 2015

I found MX-P to be more medium throw than its rep. Popcorn anyone?

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UpSideDownCarl · Aug 7, 2015

Okay, here we go:

"What force causes throw? I never have heard of a throw force. This kind of rates right up there with the disturbing or disruptive force, the unicorn, tooth fairy ...
What are the units?"

"ThrowAngle = atan(VerticalSpeed/HorizontalSpeed)"

"What force can a low throw rubber generate that a high throw rubber can't? What about the other way around?"

"What you guys call high throw rubbers tend to have a higher tangential force/impulse relative to normal force for the same incoming ball and swing conditions than a low throw rubber."

"A better term than throw would be spin/speed ratio or tangential COR/normal COR ratio."

Okay, hopefully that gets that out of the way. I think the important phrases like "tooth fairy", "tangential", "COR", "impulse", are there. Oh. By the way: "How does a rubber know if it is close to the table or away?" Okay, I couldn't resist. That one was entirely too witty for me to leave out. So, even though that was about a totally different subject I had to include it. I tell you, only a real genius would think to say that one.

Tony's Table Tennis · Aug 7, 2015

vvk1 said:
It is the player that creates the arc, not the rubber. Learning how to "power loop" with either low/medium/high arc at will makes anyone a much better player.

True

But for the beginner, the higher arc rubber (compared to lower ark) will be easier to use.
This is obvious because the beginner does not possess the attributes to properly contain and control the rubber

This is also the case where most beginners choose to go softer sponge rubbers as it is easier to use. And some coaches prefer to start the beginners on harder sponge rubbers, because it is more difficult to control/grip the ball

Liten · Aug 7, 2015

Those of you who teach, do you encurage folks to change rubbers just to get more experince?
Thinking about that block vs random training vid in the the practice vs match thread, Im starting to think that standardising your choice in equipment for concistancy may make you stop paying attention to whats going on with it? No?
I just whent 2 practices with my spare thats glued with chinese rubbers. WOW what a difference in how one has to play. This change from time to time I think is good. Keeps you humble and on your toes.

vvk1 · Aug 7, 2015

Tony's Table Tennis said:
True

But for the beginner, the higher arc rubber (compared to lower ark) will be easier to use.
This is obvious because the beginner does not possess the attributes to properly contain and control the rubber

This is also the case where most beginners choose to go softer sponge rubbers as it is easier to use. And some coaches prefer to start the beginners on harder sponge rubbers, because it is more difficult to control/grip the ball

It is hard for me to disagree with you because you're are an experienced coach and a far more advanced player than I will ever be. Many beginners do find softer high throw rubbers easier to play with - that has also been my experience.

At the same time, IMHO, not every beginner will find it easier to use a high throw/soft rubber. Imagine, someone whose height is ~180cm or taller. Someone who's not a teenager anymore and cannot readily bend the knees to stay low or simply who's not used to the correct TT posture. Someone who has long arms and therefore employs big, mostly upward, strokes. That person would actually find it easier to use a low throw rubber, at least initially, simply because of their body mechanics.

My personal observation is that, as far as beginners are concerned, especially when they are not regularly coached by someone like yourself, they should ideally pick a balanced rubber/blade combo - not too fast, not too slow, capable of generating enough speed/spin given right technique, one where they are not afraid to hit the ball using a full arm swing - instead of starting with, say, DHS Hurricane Long 3 + T05 on both sides, and then using severely abbreviated jerky strokes because otherwise the ball just does not land on the table.

Der_Echte · Aug 7, 2015

Low throw rubbers can open extremely stuck glass jar lids.

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UpSideDownCarl · Aug 7, 2015

Der_Echte said:
Low throw rubbers can open extremely stuck glass jar lids.

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hahahaha. That is what I like to use low throw rubbers for also.

fais · Aug 7, 2015

Okay, so the velocity vector for a given trajectory is comprised of the tangential velocity component and the normal velocity component. The ratio of these two components determine the "throw" of the rubber: high throw rubbers equate to higher tangential velocity vs. normal velocity, and low throw rubbers equate to higher normal velocity vs tangential velocity.

However, tangential velocity also imparts angular momentum (resulting from torque), implying that high throw rubbers will create more spin then low throw rubbers when hitting the ball at the same angle (say, 30 degrees). The heavier topspin will create greater negative lift than the low throw rubber, causing the ball to dip and hit the table earlier.

Regarding placement, this means, if you want the ball to travel a specific distance (say 3 meters to hit the back of the opponents table) - you will have to launch the ball at a greater angle to compensate for the dip created by a high throw rubber then you would with a low throw rubber.

This is why, in the butterfly video "all about tenergy" s show the tenergy 64 to have a flatter arc then the tenergy 05 for the same distance the ball travels.

EDIT: so to rebut, the player does not create the arc when placing the ball. The player may create the arc if he does not care where the ball lands.

Kaizoku · Aug 7, 2015

If you want an in depth analyzis of the things in this thread so far, with a large meaningless debate further out yet hysterically funny to read.
Go here: http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?10772-high-and-low-throw-rubbers

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 7, 2015

fais said:
EDIT: so to rebut, the player does not create the arc when placing the ball. The player may create the arc if he does not care where the ball lands.

Where were you when we needed you the last time PNut got on a rant about rubbers and throw angle! [emoji2]

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Kaizoku · Aug 7, 2015

UpSideDownCarl said:
Where were you when we needed you the last time PNut got on a rant about rubbers and throw angle! [emoji2]

It's not too late to extend the thread, lmao!

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 7, 2015

Kaizoku said:
It's not too late to extend the thread, lmao!

And, of course, that is the thread where I got all those silly quotes from PNut. Well, all except the last one which asks how a rubber would know if it was close to the table or away. But that thread got better when he started insisting that he was looping when he was slapping.

NextLevel · Aug 7, 2015

fais said:
Okay, so the velocity vector for a given trajectory is comprised of the tangential velocity component and the normal velocity component. The ratio of these two components determine the "throw" of the rubber: high throw rubbers equate to higher tangential velocity vs. normal velocity, and low throw rubbers equate to higher normal velocity vs tangential velocity.

However, tangential velocity also imparts angular momentum (resulting from torque), implying that high throw rubbers will create more spin then low throw rubbers when hitting the ball at the same angle (say, 30 degrees). The heavier topspin will create greater negative lift than the low throw rubber, causing the ball to dip and hit the table earlier.

Regarding placement, this means, if you want the ball to travel a specific distance (say 3 meters to hit the back of the opponents table) - you will have to launch the ball at a greater angle to compensate for the dip created by a high throw rubber then you would with a low throw rubber.

This is why, in the butterfly video "all about tenergy" s show the tenergy 64 to have a flatter arc then the tenergy 05 for the same distance the ball travels.

EDIT: so to rebut, the player does not create the arc when placing the ball. The player may create the arc if he does not care where the ball lands.

A player does create the arc when placing the ball - there are ways to loop with Tenergy 05 with low arc. What you mean is that for the same type of loop, different rubbers respond differently, and that is what I meant when quoting Paul Drinkhall.

Kokain · Aug 7, 2015

What have I done

????? All I wanted was a friendly banter on the differences. Wait till you people see my next thread on tackiness.......... I believe my work here is done

fais · Aug 8, 2015

NextLevel said:
A player does create the arc when placing the ball - there are ways to loop with Tenergy 05 with low arc. What you mean is that for the same type of loop, different rubbers respond differently, and that is what I meant when quoting Paul Drinkhall.

I get that, but what I'm wondering, if we manage to create the same arc with both 05 and 64, will the spins be the same? Given the fact the tangential velocity to normal velocity ratio is different with both rubbers, is it possible to produce identical shots (same arc, same placement and same spin)?

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 8, 2015

Kokain said:
What have I done ????? All I wanted was a friendly banter on the differences. Wait till you people see my next thread on tackiness.......... I believe my work here is done

Nah! This is small potatoes. You should look at the other high/low throw thread. The link is in one of Kaizoku's posts earlier but I will include it below. That thread was very recent so this is just a little thing in comparison. There were at least 5 pages. This hasn't even got off the first page yet. And the last post in it was just 4 weeks ago. So you really could have just bumped the old thread and it might have caused more trouble.

Kaizoku said:
If you want an in depth analyzis of the things in this thread so far, with a large meaningless debate further out yet hysterically funny to read.
Go here: http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?10772-high-and-low-throw-rubbers

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High throw vs low throw rubber (high / low arc) thoughts

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