High throw vs low throw rubber (high / low arc) thoughts

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Shame because the only way now to find out is to try it by buying one instead of waiting on advice. I guess there are some thing on forums that just can't be done. Luckily it's the chinese that are tacky + low throw so I will get to experiment with some rubber that won't break the bank. I will probably end up giving it to the kids or just having them on a spare bat.
One rubber I was hoping it will be discounted is Nittaku Hammond Pro Beta, which is low throw but not tacky just to see how I will enjoy it as I hear great reviews by everyone. Only problem is they want a few bucks for it for just being Nittaku.
 
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I get that, but what I'm wondering, if we manage to create the same arc with both 05 and 64, will the spins be the same? Given the fact the tangential velocity to normal velocity ratio is different with both rubbers, is it possible to produce identical shots (same arc, same placement and same spin)?

If one produces the same arc using two different rubbers, then the tangential velocity to normal velocity ratio at the point when the ball loses contact with the rubber surface will be the same for both rubbers. If the ratio was different, one wouldn't get the same arc. Basic artillery physics taught to everyone who went to school in USSR back in the 80s.

IMHO, Pnachtwey got it right in the last 3 paragraphs here: http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/f...-throw-rubbers&p=115454&viewfull=1#post115454 (and if it wasn't for his "online personality traits" people would agree with him more instead of pretty much dismissing his claims almost outright).

The truth is that the paddle exerts a force on the ball during impact. The force times the dwell time is the impulse. That force/impulse can be broken down into a normal force and tangential force. What you guys call high throw rubbers tend to have a higher tangential force/impulse relative to normal force for the same incoming ball and swing conditions than a low throw rubber.

A better term than throw would be spin/speed ratio or tangential COR/normal COR ratio. This factors out the swing of the human and makes it easier to rate the rubbers alone and not the rubber+players.

Since it is the tangential force/impulse that causes spin, loopers would like higher throw rubbers especially if they are going to loop quickly off the bounce. Hitters would like lower throw rubbers. What I like about SP, low throw, is that they make it easy to place the ball and not affected as much by incoming spin. In the end it is really a matter of preference and ability to adapt.

At the same time, I am not entirely sure about tangential COR/normal COR ratio being a better term because, IMHO, it is fairly pointless to try to factor out the effect the blade/player has on rubbers. After all, the force exerted by the paddle on the ball is the direct result of the players stroke (and strongly depends on the blade properties).
 
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If one produces the same arc using two different rubbers, then the tangential velocity to normal velocity ratio at the point when the ball loses contact with the rubber surface will be the same for both rubbers. If the ratio was different, one wouldn't get the same arc. Basic artillery physics taught to everyone who went to school in USSR back in the 80sw.

You are right, it was redundant for me to say that. My question is, mathematically speaking, is it possible to vary your stroke such that the contact forces produced by two different types of rubbers (lets say 05 vs 64) are identitical?

My reasoning is (and correct me if im wrong) is no, solely because the when loop driving, the loop vector effects the drive vector (the dot product between the two isnt 0) so you cant vary one without effecting the other. (Brush vector being the motion of the bat along the angle of said bat imparting the tangential impulse, and the drive vector being along the horizontal axis and is NOT perpendicular to the bat angle.)

I would be wrong if there wad a way to drive perpendicular to the bat angle and loop at the same time parallel to the bat angle, in this case you could vary thr two to compensate for different COR_t/COR_n
 
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You are right, it was redundant for me to say that. My question is, mathematically speaking, is it possible to vary your stroke such that the contact forces produced by two different types of rubbers (lets say 05 vs 64) are identitical?

My reasoning is (and correct me if im wrong) is no, solely because the when loop driving, the loop vector effects the drive vector (the dot product between the two isnt 0) so you cant vary one without effecting the other. (Brush vector being the motion of the bat along the angle of said bat imparting the tangential impulse, and the drive vector being along the horizontal axis and is NOT perpendicular to the bat angle.)

I would be wrong if there wad a way to drive perpendicular to the bat angle and loop at the same time parallel to the bat angle, in this case you could vary thr two to compensate for different COR_t/COR_n

IMHO, at low impact speeds, if one's loop is very brushy, with a very thin contact, i.e. engaging just the topsheet, then there shouldn't be any reason why the resulting contact forces cannot be identical for the same stroke - especially considering that T05 and T64's topsheets are made of the same material.

However, when returning the ball produced by a fast spinny loop, then the counterloop would almost necessarily involve some topsheet surface+pimples+sponge deformation. And that's where there will be differences in rubber behaviour. BTY says that T64's pimples are taller and are spaced apart more widely than the ones on T05, and that both rubbers use the same sponge. Which means T64's topsheet will probably be more elastic, and the sponge will be engaged earlier than with T05. Which probably means that a counterloop stroke using T64 will likely produce a faster ball as opposed to the same countersloop stroke than T05.

Given that the total "dwell"/contact time is very small, I suspect it would very difficult for any human being (no matter how close they are to being an identical Ma Long clone) to be able to compensate for this increase in ball speed (and likely reduction in total dwell time). Hence we all observe that T05 throws higher and is spinner, and T64 throws longer but with less total spin.

So, at high ball speed/spin, I'd agree with you and say no.
 
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Yes, at high speeds when loop driving I agree. I wrote somewhere else as much - when you have a good stroke, all that changes when you loop drive is the ball trajectory and the speed of impact at which bottoming out occurs. But for me, looping is about heavy topspin. Loop driving I consider a bit differently in the larger scheme of things.
 
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Aw, you guys miss me.

UpsidedownCarl quoted me. I wonder if he understands what I said?.
Fais is asking the right questions.
vvk1 has the right conclusions.
In the end it is all about what do you prefer? There is no impulse Tenergy 05 can generate that Hammond B or what ever can't. The stroke will be slightly different.

I am in Shanghai now. I was giving presentations, visiting and advising customers, signing auto graphs and being the center of attention. Literally. I will have a picture soon to prove it.

I played TT at the Yuanshen athletic center today in the Pudong district of Shanghai. There were 3 coaches there. Only one was any good. The next time in Shanghai ( October ) I may get a lesson from her. The other 2 male coaches had their heads up their a$$e$. The female coach was very good. The mother of one of the students was picking up balls. My mother would have never done that for me. I have never seen that anywhere in the US either. Now that the Chinese have devalued the RMB to 6.3/1$ lessons coach only about $30/hr.

When I get back to the US I will address the point the fools make about slapping the ball.
 
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Pnchy, you win this round of piss contest hands down.

I (and VERY few of us) never could travel where you just went on business paid and have such a TT adventure, see what you saw, had the obvious blast you had, and meet the people you did. Pics will only enhance it.

Watch what you say about the slapping though. That vid you posted, you weren't exactly slapping it, but you were not overcoming the spin to make a heavy slow spinny loop, you were mostly driving it with half upwards swing.
 
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UpsidedownCarl quoted me. I wonder if he understands what I said?.
Fais is asking the right questions.
vvk1 has the right conclusions.
In the end it is all about what do you prefer? There is no impulse Tenergy 05 can generate that Hammond B or what ever can't. The stroke will be slightly different.

I am in Shanghai now. I was giving presentations, visiting and advising customers, signing auto graphs and being the center of attention. Literally. I will have a picture soon to prove it.

I played TT at the Yuanshen athletic center today in the Pudong district of Shanghai. There were 3 coaches there. Only one was any good. The next time in Shanghai ( October ) I may get a lesson from her. The other 2 male coaches had their heads up their a$$e$. The female coach was very good. The mother of one of the students was picking up balls. My mother would have never done that for me. I have never seen that anywhere in the US either. Now that the Chinese have devalued the RMB to 6.3/1$ lessons coach only about $30/hr.

When I get back to the US I will address the point the fools make about slapping the ball.

Did you show them the videos of your loop?

No wonder they wanted the autograph-the inventor of the most modern form of the loop,unbeknown to most of the world...
 
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UpsidedownCarl quoted me. I wonder if he understands what I said?

Hey, I think you have a bunch of good things to say. And I also agree with you and think this poster--vvk1--had something right:

IMHO, Pnachtwey got it right in the last 3 paragraphs here: http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/f...-throw-rubbers&p=115454&viewfull=1#post115454 (and if it wasn't for his "online personality traits" people would agree with him more instead of pretty much dismissing his claims almost outright).

I am 100% confident that most of your problem is your online personality traits. Because a lot of the technical info is decent. It is just that you are always using it in a way to try and make someone else look bad instead of trying to give useful information. Then you end up in these arguments where you say stuff that is just plain stupid to try and make someone else look stupid. Like insisting that NextLevel said he "can't" loop backspin with T25 when what he meant was it isn't as good for that as a rubber like T05; or like when you insist that you are looping in videos where you are obviously not generating any significant spin.

If you presented the information to help people instead of trying to find people to insult, a lot of what you say would be good stuff. But when one combines the fact that what makes you happy is trying to find people to call stupid, and then the fact that your TT skills with smooth rubber are pretty abysmal compared to all the smack you talk, it totally nullifies so many of the useful things you say.

Again, this is because you say things to try and make others look stupid. Not because you want to help anyone.

So, yeah, vvk1 got a lot right. The technical is there and he also got that your online personality gets in your way.

And he presented much of the same information to help people understand some of the technic information about what may be going on without trying to put anyone down. There were some other good posts in this thread where good information was presented without anyone trying to put anyone else down.

Why did I quote you? Well, I have a feeling I knew what you were going to say in this thread because it is a complete repeat of the previous thread. Even the stuff I quoted, most of it isn't bad, but how you say it actually is.

However, there is no way around this being kind of stupid and it demonstrates the flaw in your online personality:

Oh. By the way: "How does a rubber know if it is close to the table or away?" Okay, I couldn't resist. That one was entirely too witty for me to leave out.

That one wasn't about a rubber's throw angle. But it seems that you are saying that all rubbers play equally well at all distances. And of course that is really not accurate. Some rubbers do perform better close to the table. Others play better from further back.

I bet there are a few people out there who might have a good explanation for that. Like, a rubber whose speed to spin ratio was more on the speed side of the equation may perform better from further back.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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OMG! Who let the goats loose in this thread!?
But if the battery is the same one jack Bauer uses, he is OK. That battery NEVER runs outta power.
Jack Bauer borrowed Chuck Norris' Battery... Just saying...

Fact:
Chuck Norris uses empty batteries in his cell phone and it still works.
 
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This is the one sport where a ball slapping player whose rating is below 1400 on his best day lectures players who are USATT 2000+ on how looping should work. Love it.

Laugh a full 30 minutes !!!

But on another side of the coin, it is so sad that in many business organizations and MUCH of the military, the higher you go up, the more this is the actual situation.
 
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To be fair, I am at my true level a tad below 2000 for east coast standard and some 2000-2100 players have asked me to teach them certain aspects of TT where I am stronger. I tell one of these guys there should be NOTHING William should be able to teach a TT player who is a full level better than William and who also has 40+ more years experience in TT over William.

Yet, there are a few things I know or do better than these 2000-2100 solid players that I could show them, even if my overall level is not to their standard. (Hint: it is a BH shot or two and serves)
 
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This is the one sport where a ball slapping player whose rating is below 1400 on his best day lectures players who are USATT 2000+ on how looping should work. Love it.

This one is so funny it is not even funny.
 
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