Forehand topspin problem

Hi Bryce, I've read a few answers here and there and a lot of it's pretty counter productive. Your first question was about how to adjust your forehand loop to a block mostly a 3rd ball attack from what I read.

So in order to practice this you would need to serve topspin or deadspin with some speed on the ball so that your opponent can block it back and then you can produce a 3rd ball attack looping or driving the ball back for an attack shot.

Some key points in this scenario are:

1. Feet - make sure you are on the balls of your feet to allow yourself to be able to move into the proper position.
2. Racket Angle - make sure your angle is compensating for the spin on the ball. If there is topspin you can afford a 30-45 degree angle if there is no spin you should hit with a mostly neutral or flat angle.
3. Ball contact - you should ALWAYS hit the back of the ball. Except in cases where the ball is above your head from a bounce or lob you should never hit the top of the ball this will most likely force the ball into the net from the top spin generated. If you can imagine that the ball is a clock the top of the ball would be 12 and the back would be 3 o'clock. I recommend for top spin shots to hit between 1:30 and 2:30 for dead balls between 2:30 and 3:30 and for underspin between 3:00 and 3:30. All of these positions however would be for looping not for chopping or pushing which would go into the 4 to 6 o'clock range. Or even service which would go from 5 to 7 o'clock.
4. Power - you should never produce a shot at 100% of your power unless you have your opponent out of position or on the defensive. The best shots are made typically with about 75 - 80% of your power because they allow for great spin, speed, but most importantly accuracy.
5. Timing - when your opponent is hitting the ball you should be starting your back swing when the ball bounces on your side of the table you should be starting your forward swing and by the time the ball reaches the highest point in its bounce you should make contact with the ball.

If you wanted to practice against a block you have to pay attention to spin. Blocks can have top spin, no spin, or even a little back spin depending on the style of the block the latter of course being a chop block. But if you are hitting between 1:30 and 3:30 on the ball with your sweet spot on the paddle you should be getting some shots in on your 3rd ball attacks. Practice accuracy first by hitting at half power then slowly raise the power until you gain full control of your shots.

On to Ma Long. Some key points to his shots are:

1. Footwork - He stays on the balls of his feet to allow himself to move the quickest while getting into position.
2. Transfer of Power (Arm) - For looping the pushes he will stay low keeping his elbow at the level of the ball during his back swing. He will then make contact with the ball keeping his arm stretched out to about 150-160 degrees and at the point of contact he'll bend his arm to 90 degrees for his follow through producing more spin. He will also keep his stroke in an upward 30-45 degree angle. During his back swing he will also bend his wrist back and upon contact with the ball he'll snap it back into the normal position. For topspin loops he will keep his stroke angle in a forward and slightly upward angle around 160-170 degrees. He'll also keep his wrist in the normal position for a topspin shot.
3. Transfer of Power (Legs) - He will keep his weight towards his back leg until he starts his forward swing when the ball bounces on his side of the table. At the point of contact with an underspin shot he will shift his weight upwards and forwards to provide energy to the ball over the net. For the topspin loops he will shift his weight backwards and then forwards rather than upwards.

Wow I seem to write novels here lol. Hope this helps.

Your explanation is gold sir Richard
Thank you good sire for the quality post.

Gotta take some note

Bryce said:

Hey guys. I have had this problem for quite some time. Usually when i do 3rd ball attack or an offensive forehand stroke, i usually hit the second one long as my opponent blocks it. When i trained with my coach who was playing chopping against me, he said that my second attack was too rushed and asked me to wait for 2 seconds after the ball touches the table. I tried it and it didn't really work for me so please give me your insight on this.
Thanks.

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Looping the second attack long is very likely caused by dropping your blade too low for the next attack, which causes the swing to be way too vertical. This comes from dropping the hitting shoulder too low. The most common reason we do this is this is how we hit the first ball, usually vs underspin. On your Fh topspin, the block will likely come back with some level of light topspin. Using a lifting stroke vs this ball carrying topspin (using the lifting attack stroke you just did vs underspin) is one sure way to loop the ball long and out and lose confidence in your attacking, which is even more of a killer in a match. Who among us wins consistantly without confidence?

The cure is to keep the second attack weight transfer forward, swing plane more forward and keep racket higher after the first attack. Two things to remember to fix this are to keep the racket above the table, like at net height after the stroke and to rotate the shoulders + waist, without dropping the hitting shoulder. (Of course you are already crouched) This will ensure that you have a better chance to use a more forward stroke at an acceptable height. This also helps you better time hitting the ball at the top of bounce, which gives opponet less time, plus gives you good chance of landing your attack. also helps your weight transfer and balance, later you can learn a more compact stroke on this and be even faster to get to and finish the ball when your opponet adapts by blocking or countering faster. All this adds up to higher effectiveness, more won points and increased confidence. That contributes a lot towards winning a match.You will quickly adapt your balde angles for the different levels of incoming topspins, but your strong forward stroke generating will get you to land a lot of them anyway. You will close a little more vs heavier topspin, too easy.

At first, these two totally different strokes make no sense to your and your mind as you try to implement the fixes. However, if you practice it enough, you will find yourself making even stronger attacks off the block of your first opener. Remember, it takes some time to adapt. The transistion will not become natural on the first day and you will miss more in matches at first, but at the end of the day (more like month or two or three) you will be WAY better off for this period of (figurative) pain.

You guys has very good answers on his problem,one thingwould like to add is ALWAYS keep your elbow in front of your body. That has helped me a lot!

Hey Bryce, looked at your original post again and you mentioned a coach chopping for you. Is he chopping your loops back, if so then the dynamics are different. Maybe he was just giving you underspin to initiate an attack and maintain pressure to finish. If it was a chop return, then you have different stuff to face. When you get a chop return back, you have some options and decision making. You have to figure out if you want to hit a slow speed shot with a lot of spin, or if you want to make a fast attack. You use more lifting (like a very vertical stroke) for the slower speed attack. The big two adjustments being swing direction and the degree you open the blade. At impact, you are trying to overpower (or better said, overspeed or overcome) the spin on the ball. You need some serious racket acelleration and explosion for that. You can open the blade some more for heavier incoming spin to keep it on the table. That stroke is a relative safe stroke, but not exactly a point winner, unless you get lucky. The fast attcking stroke involves a LOT more forward swing and a more open racket, plus some followthrough upwards. Assuming your position, acelleration, body mechanics (like NOT contacting the ball too far in front) and such were correct, AND that you read the spin/speed/break/depth correctly, you troubleshoot you missed shots by closing the blade more or using less lifting if shots are going long and closing blade or lifting more on the stroke. You also can get away with more forward swing vs a ball with less incoming underspin.

A lot of times, it is not as simple to say "Lift more", "Close blade more", "Open blade more" to fix all the misses, because there is often another reason that greatly contributed to the missed shot. It could be a wide range of stuff, but is usually mis-reading the spin and often messing up something in position or stroke. (Like hitting too far in front or improper balance/weight transfer/hitting too erect, lifting the elbow and shoulder joint, bad wrist snap timing, just to name a few examples) You have to learn exactly what went wrong to fix it. That is where having good skilled friends, a coach, or video can help identify the root cause(s).

As you get more aware of what does what in the strokes and how you do it yourself, it will fall together better and better.

I think your coach is saying to wait longer is to get you to relax a bit more and be in position and ready to execute the safer, slow loop shot to continue to build the pressure on the opponent. When you get a cut (Korean term for an underspin ball) you usually have enough time to not rush things, unless you have to move 2 meters to get into position. your coach is right there with you and we at the forums are not, unless we see video, so try out what coach says and ask him to tell you what things you are doing wrong that is causing your misses.

I pay for a coach here in Korea (they are very inexpensive compared to USA! AND they are usually very very high level) and I am like a bug or insect to the coach. Why? Because whatever money I pay, I want value and I want to learn. I am always in their ear asking WHY/HOW etc. I am a bother to them, just like a mosquito is to us in the summer.

A lot of people give out advice to WAIT for the incoming underspin ball to DROP a bit before hitting it. That is OK if you have good lift on your slow loop and it gives you more time to be in position. That is good for that stroke, but it is much more difficult to land the power shot against an underspin ball if it drops too much. You give yourself a lot more margin for error if you hit it higher, like near net height vs hitting it 5 cm below the table.