Who do you think will win the 2015 Men's World Cup?

  • Ma Long

    Votes: 40 49.4%
  • Fan Zhendong

    Votes: 29 35.8%
  • Dimitrij Ovtcharov

    Votes: 2 2.5%
  • Jun Mizutani

    Votes: 3 3.7%
  • Marcos Freitas

    Votes: 4 4.9%
  • Chuang Chih Yuan

    Votes: 1 1.2%
  • Koki Niwa

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Tang Peng

    Votes: 1 1.2%
  • Gao Ning

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other (Post Below)

    Votes: 1 1.2%

  • Total voters
    81
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Dec 2011
169
350
721
The one thing I will say is that there is an easy way to deal with what Ma Long is doing, but the problem is that at that level, you can only do what you train. Dima stood at the table in a way that made his going down the line too risky. With the right footwork, he can shut down that serve by giving himself the crosscourt and down the line option. This is what I suspect ZJK would have done or at least have done something to give himself a fourth ball opportunity.

Is this the type of shot and footwork that you are describing?

http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=Hn7aSCeoCso&p=n#/186;191
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,288
17,749
44,321
Read 17 reviews
Is this the type of shot and footwork that you are describing?

http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=Hn7aSCeoCso&p=n#/186;191

Yes. IF you look at the World Cup Final, to shut that down, what Ma Long did was serve straight into FZD's backhand and start and early pivot. What he banked on was that FZD would have faith in how wide his banana curves (FZD is not a power banana like Dima on those plays). Of course, we all saw the amazing results.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Dec 2011
169
350
721
Yes. IF you look at the World Cup Final, to shut that down, what Ma Long did was serve straight into FZD's backhand and start and early pivot. What he banked on was that FZD would have faith in how wide his banana curves (FZD is not a power banana like Dima on those plays). Of course, we all saw the amazing results.

If I am understanding your post correctly, you're saying that against short pendulum serves to the BH, FZD should chiquita at a wider angle into Ma Long's backhand, using the sidespin to curve the ball and break the sideline more heavily. I generally agree with you, but sometimes I wonder if it is even possible to get the ball to a wide enough angle at which ML can't pivot and blast a forehand. Like this for example:

http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=uNnnCZoDSNY&p=n#/544;547

Edit: Actually after reading your post again, I think you might be saying that FZD should be flicking those balls down the line to the FH, too.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: NextLevel
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,288
17,749
44,321
Read 17 reviews
If I am understanding your post correctly, you're saying that against short pendulum serves to the BH, FZD should chiquita at a wider angle into Ma Long's backhand, using the sidespin to curve the ball and break the sideline more heavily. I generally agree with you, but sometimes I wonder if it is even possible to get the ball to a wide enough angle at which ML can't pivot and blast a forehand. Like this for example:

http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=uNnnCZoDSNY&p=n#/544;547

Edit: Actually after reading your post again, I think you might be saying that FZD should be flicking those balls down the line to the FH, too.

No - I was saying that this is what FZD was relying on, but Ma Long obviously practiced pivoting that wide especially for him. FZD should have relied on a more deceptive scenario with two possible locations and then get ready to play the point out - Ma Long was baiting that ball. You can't blame FZD as Ma Long used that play twice or thrice in the match, I believe.

Yes, your edit is correct.
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,686
54,748
Read 11 reviews
Well, when Ma Long played FZD in the WTTC semi-finals, the match was similar. But a month earlier when he played a healthy ZJK in the German open, that was a closer match. And I think ZJK may have wanted to lose that match on purpose. I am not sure why. But if you watch that 5th game, there is something odd that occurs. ZJK is up 3-1 in games and Ma Long is falling apart, missing pushes. He looked emotionally broken and as though he had given up; and up 4-1 in that 5th game ZJK starts taking crazy shots that look like he is aiming for a table on the other side of the barricades. It actually looked to me like he was trying to throw those points before Ma Long got a chance to mess up. And all of a sudden the score was 4-4.

You never know what really happened. It could have been that ZJK had a mental collapse. But he was totally in control of that match until that point. And Ma Long never looked especially good.

So, we will have to see what happens the next time Ma Long and Zhang Jike play in a big tournament.

It will also be interesting to see how ZJK performs in the trials for the Olympics.


Sent from Godric'sHollow using the ResurrectionStone
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,288
17,749
44,321
Read 17 reviews
Well, when Ma Long played FZD in the WTTC semi-finals, the match was similar. But a month earlier when he played a healthy ZJK in the German open, that was a closer match. And I think ZJK may have wanted to lose that match on purpose. I am not sure why. But if you watch that 5th game, there is something odd that occurs. ZJK is up 3-1 in games and Ma Long is falling apart, missing pushes. He looked emotionally broken and as though he had given up; and up 4-1 in that 5th game ZJK starts taking crazy shots that look like he is aiming for a table on the other side of the barricades. It actually looked to me like he was trying to throw those points before Ma Long got a chance to mess up. And all of a sudden the score was 4-4.

You never know what really happened. It could have been that ZJK had a mental collapse. But he was totally in control of that match until that point. And Ma Long never looked especially good.

So, we will have to see what happens the next time Ma Long and Zhang Jike play in a big tournament.

It will also be interesting to see how ZJK performs in the trials for the Olympics.


Sent from Godric'sHollow using the ResurrectionStone

The conclusion of some of us at MyTT was that ZJK's back went out so he started playing with more risk and was unable to do his forehand shots as effectively. Other people thought ZJK was fine and that we were just seeing things, but to me, it was clear that ZJK was injured in the 5th to 7th games of that match, as well as he played at certain points.
 
  • Like
Reactions: anchorschmidt
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,686
54,748
Read 11 reviews
That could be correct. I actually made the assumption he sandbagged so Ma Long would be overconfident if they met in the WTTC finals. I thought he was basically thinking he controlled the match and then let ML take it all the while knowing he had the match under control. I thought it was psychological warfare. But then ZJK injured his shoulder in the WTTC and didn't get to the finals.

In the semis vs Fang Bo I thought he may have sandbagged knowing he could not give Ma Long a real match with the shoulder injury. But Fang Bo also played pretty darn well.


Sent from Godric'sHollow using the ResurrectionStone
 
  • Like
Reactions: TTFrenzy
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Feb 2012
2,010
1,441
4,714
Read 1 reviews
That could be correct. I actually made the assumption he sandbagged so Ma Long would be overconfident if they met in the WTTC finals. I thought he was basically thinking he controlled the match and then let ML take it all the while knowing he had the match under control. I thought it was psychological warfare. But then ZJK injured his shoulder in the WTTC and didn't get to the finals.

In the semis vs Fang Bo I thought he may have sandbagged knowing he could not give Ma Long a real match with the shoulder injury. But Fang Bo also played pretty darn well.


Sent from Godric'sHollow using the ResurrectionStone

From a specific perspective all these seem logical but from another one they also seem like conspiracy theories. I dont know if ZJK wanted ML to be overconfident, it doesnt seem reasonable to me because they have nothing else to hide from each other. I think the most logical explanation is that ZJK was tired or injured and wanted to finish the match quickly (im talking about the german open)

This was the 2nd match that ZJK gave away to ML the first one was in the 2013 pro tour grand finals. ZJK was again leading 2-0, and then totally made some rushed shots and eventually lost 4-3.

I think he didnt need to give the match away to ML because ma long (im talking about the german open) will simply never be overconfident even if he achieves a double grand slam and I think ZJK knows that and has psyched him 100% those two matches are a perfect example.

I mean look at the last point of world cup against FZD, ML plays as the world champion, he leads 3-0 and 10-8 and his legs start hopping and shaking just too much for a slow point like that. It is a clear indication that ML always is anxious at crucial points, even if he totally dominates a match, the funny thing is that people thought that his mentality would change after he clinched the world title but I believe it didnt actually do much.

In the end I believe that ML is just too humble , insecure and with unrealistic expectations of himself which is in great contrast with what he has achieved so far. On the other hand ZJK has a more realistic and logical approach to the game and he accepts defeat without putting any pressure on himself afterwards.

Those matches german open 2015 pro tour grands 2013 chinese trials 2014 are a perfect example that if ZJK figures out how to play an opponent, he then feels in total control of the game , he bites and simply never lets go. Same situation goes with ZJK against wang hao, wang hao dominated a younger ZJK but after the 2009 chinese champs final the only important match ZJK lost was his 2010 world cup final. His only weakness has always been his impatience
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Dec 2010
3,779
4,569
16,162
I don't think ZJK is throwing matches, he always had a swagger and body language that projects a do not care attitude.
The simple thing is that he has a lot of injuries including some old ones in the back and shoulder that keeps flaring up whenever he hits a wide forehand from out of position especially in critical points where he is tensed. The situation has worsened because of his lack of training and match play which started before the Super League.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TTFrenzy
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Feb 2012
2,010
1,441
4,714
Read 1 reviews
I don't think ZJK is throwing matches, he always had a swagger and body language that projects a do not care attitude.
The simple thing is that he has a lot of injuries including some old ones in the back and shoulder that keeps flaring up whenever he hits a wide forehand from out of position especially in critical points where he is tensed. The situation has worsened because of his lack of training and match play which started before the Super League.

Yeah I agree, actually winning against ma long in pro tours several times where ZJK does not play his 100% would have a negative effect on ma long's confidence even more. But then again, both of them dont seem to care so much about pro tours, even ma long. they just attend for extra "practice" matches and keeping their ranking steady
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,686
54,748
Read 11 reviews
Right now I think ZJK is playing pretty badly. In the past, when he was basically at the top of his game, he would pick and choose the tournaments to play hard in. In the whole period from when he won his first WTTC to when he won his second, ZJK did not play great most of the time. In many tournaments it looked like he just didn't care and couldn't get motivated to play. The exceptions were a few big tournaments including the 2 WTTCs and the 2012 Olympic games. Also, he did great in all the China Trials for the WTTCs.

Now there are times when you can see he just isn't playing and doesn't care.

But I don't know what happened at the Germain open and I know that, in the WTTC he was injured in the Jun Mizutani match.

To me, right now, ZJK is playing so badly that it will be interesting to see if his career is basically done or if he can get back on track.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ttmonster
Top