Men's World Cup 2015

We all know it's going to be Ma Long or Fan Zhendong. Although, I am supporting Jun Mizutani. Why is Jimmy butler in this? I'd never heard of him until just now!

I'd like to see Ma Long win it but with his waist/back injury I feel like it might be Fan Zhendong's moment on the day, we will see

Dan said:

This is interesting. Xu Xin must not be happy at all. China is so tough, if I was in their position I would have no idea who to choose for the Olympic team in Rio as they all rightly deserve a shot

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Come on Dan. You know that the players who get to go to the Olympic Games have to win their spot. It is not a question of who to choose but who comes up strong in the qualification trials.


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For Rio 2016 it will be awesome if they send ZJK and ML for single tournament while they could put FZD, Xu Xin and one other player for the team tournament

Its too early to tell for Rio. LGL always gives more chances to the players he believes they gonna make it. WTTTC final wang hao is out zhang jike in. LGL's choice proved accurate

2012 olympics ma long is out wang hao is in (although everybody expected ma lon because he won so many pro tours)...dont forget that wang hao is the most steady player against non chinese and ma long was in a poor mental condition until 2013 chinese national games.

wttc 2013 trials wang hao is almost out, LGL changes the trials rules wang hao beat FZD in the last trial set, again wang hao is in. wttc 2015 trials hao shuai makes it to the top 5 but LGL replaces him, he also stated that fang bo is the "dark horse" of wttc 2015 and fang bo made it to the final. The only player that didnt play as expected was Yan an after the 2013 wttc he lost some matches against foreigners but he has also suffered a long injury.

I believe that if ML & ZJK recover quickly from their injuries and efficiently allocate their energy, they will have no match in the olympic trials. I dont want to sound too harsh but XX cant do much in the future and I highly doubt that we will ever see him as a world or olympic champion with such a cruel competition


p.s. I voted for FZD to win the world cup , ML was injured so we dont know if he will be in top form. ML is definitely more smart than FZD, but the kid is a beast in fast topspin to topspin rallies

I really hope China at least include Xu Xin at least as their 3rd player in Rio now that he's already won 3 gold medals in China National Championships last week. In fact, although he lost in this year WTTC men's single, he won other gold in men's and mixed double.

Kevin Geraldy said:

For Rio 2016 it will be awesome if they send ZJK and ML for single tournament while they could put FZD, Xu Xin and one other player for the team tournament

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However, they only allow up to 3 spots for the team competition at the Olympics.

Qualification vs Coachs' choice

UpSideDownCarl said:

Come on Dan. You know that the players who get to go to the Olympic Games have to win their spot. It is not a question of who to choose but who comes up strong in the qualification trials.


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That's an interesting point, there are definitely qualification trials but at the end of the day I believe that China will still have a way of sending the players they want. I mean what happens if in qualification the "right" players all bomb out i.e. XX, FZD, ML, ZJK do not make it (I know that's almost impossible) and some other "random" player makes it (I mean no insult to any player who is not one of the 4 above).

I have actually been involved with Chinese national selections for an entirely different activity, chess and we had the situation one year when the "right" players didn't qualify and in the end I remember the guys who did qualify simply weren't allowed to go and the "right" players anyway were selected by the coaching staff and sent to the international team event. That was some time ago and in a different sport and not for the real Olympics but still...I wonder how it's really done, how democratic and fair the whole process is.

MegaZZ said:

That's an interesting point, there are definitely qualification trials but at the end of the day I believe that China will still have a way of sending the players they want. I mean what happens if in qualification the "right" players all bomb out i.e. XX, FZD, ML, ZJK do not make it (I know that's almost impossible) and some other "random" player makes it (I mean no insult to any player who is not one of the 4 above).

I have actually been involved with Chinese national selections for an entirely different activity, chess and we had the situation one year when the "right" players didn't qualify and in the end I remember the guys who did qualify simply weren't allowed to go and the "right" players anyway were selected by the coaching staff and sent to the international team event. That was some time ago and in a different sport and not for the real Olympics but still...I wonder how it's really done, how democratic and fair the whole process is.

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In the 2012 Olympics, Wang Hao qualified first. Zhang Jike qualified second. Ma Long qualified third. Xu Xin qualified fourth. There were only two spots for the singles event. The third spot was for team. The fourth spot was backup.

Wang Hao and Zhang Jike played singles. No matter how much people wanted Ma Long to play singles, he did not qualify. If CNT chose not to send Wang Hao or Zhang Jike, then Ma Long could have played singles but they would not be able to play the team event. If China tried to fake an injury to one of the top two so Ma Long could play singles and Xu Xin could play team, THE OLYMPIC COMMITTEE DOCTORS, would have had to examine the injured player and determine if his withdrawal was legitimate.

If someone was legitimately injured, then the replacements can move into that spot. But if China had tried to change the order of the qualified players simply because they wanted to, that would have caused them to lose a spot. Those are the rules. It is harder to mess with the Olympic Committee than other international tournaments.

The only way China chooses is by sending, or NOT SENDING certain players to qualification tournaments.

UpSideDownCarl said:

In the 2012 Olympics, Wang Hao qualified first. Zhang Jike qualified second. Ma Long qualified third. Xu Xin qualified fourth. There were only two spots for the singles event. The third spot was for team. The fourth spot was backup.

Wang Hao and Zhang Jike played singles. No matter how much people wanted Ma Long to play singles, he did not qualify. If CNT chose not to send Wang Hao or Zhang Jike, then Ma Long could have played singles but they would not be able to play the team event. If China tried to fake an injury to one of the top two so Ma Long could play singles and Xu Xin could play team, THE OLYMPIC COMMITTEE DOCTORS, would have had to examine the injured player and determine if his withdrawal was legitimate.

If someone was legitimately injured, then the replacements can move into that spot. But if China had tried to change the order of the qualified players simply because they wanted to, that would have caused them to lose a spot. Those are the rules. It is harder to mess with the Olympic Committee than other international tournaments.

The only way China chooses is by sending, or NOT SENDING certain players to qualification tournaments.

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Yeah I see your point, the order the players finish in the qualification tournament plays a key role...if the order is not right then someone has to be "sacrificed" to correct this and that is a big concession as well. I guess this applies mainly for the two singles spot right? The third spot for team player is the choice of the country sending the players.

Not exactly. The third spot is not negotiable either. Xu Xin could not have replaced Ma Long except in the case of an injury.

And it is not a sacrifice the way you are thinking of it. If CNT had pulled Wang Hao out so that Ma Long and Zhang Jike could play singles, THEN THEY COULD NOT PLAY IN THE OLYMPIC TEAM EVENT BECAUSE THEY WOULD HAVE TO FORFEIT THEIR THIRD SPOT. If there was a legitimate injury, they could swap Ma Long in and have Xu Xin (the backup spot--he qualified 4th) to play the team event.

BUT IF THEY WERE CAUGHT BY OLYMPIC COMMITTEE DOCTORS FAKING AN INJURY TO SWAP, THEN THEY LOSE THE FAKE INJURY PLAYER AND THE THIRD POSITION AND END WITH ONE PLAYER IN OLYMPIC SINGLES AND NO TEAM EVENT.

So you can't really mess with who qualifies except by choosing who goes to the qualification events. The rest is up to the players and their results.

I think Fan Zhendong will take this!

UpSideDownCarl said:

In the 2012 Olympics, Wang Hao qualified first. Zhang Jike qualified second. Ma Long qualified third. Xu Xin qualified fourth. There were only two spots for the singles event. The third spot was for team. The fourth spot was backup.

Wang Hao and Zhang Jike played singles. No matter how much people wanted Ma Long to play singles, he did not qualify. If CNT chose not to send Wang Hao or Zhang Jike, then Ma Long could have played singles but they would not be able to play the team event. If China tried to fake an injury to one of the top two so Ma Long could play singles and Xu Xin could play team, THE OLYMPIC COMMITTEE DOCTORS, would have had to examine the injured player and determine if his withdrawal was legitimate.

If someone was legitimately injured, then the replacements can move into that spot. But if China had tried to change the order of the qualified players simply because they wanted to, that would have caused them to lose a spot. Those are the rules. It is harder to mess with the Olympic Committee than other international tournaments.

The only way China chooses is by sending, or NOT SENDING certain players to qualification tournaments.

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Wow, I really didn't know that. Up till now I think they didn't send Ma Long because China thought either Wang Hao or Zhang Jike qualified as Grandslam Champion, whereas Ma Long at that time still hadn't win any major tournament. Thanks for sharing.

UpSideDownCarl said:

Not exactly. The third spot is not negotiable either. Xu Xin could not have replaced Ma Long except in the case of an injury.

And it is not a sacrifice the way you are thinking of it. If CNT had pulled Wang Hao out so that Ma Long and Zhang Jike could play singles, THEN THEY COULD NOT PLAY IN THE OLYMPIC TEAM EVENT BECAUSE THEY WOULD HAVE TO FORFEIT THEIR THIRD SPOT. If there was a legitimate injury, they could swap Ma Long in and have Xu Xin (the backup spot--he qualified 4th) to play the team event.

BUT IF THEY WERE CAUGHT BY OLYMPIC COMMITTEE DOCTORS FAKING AN INJURY TO SWAP, THEN THEY LOSE THE FAKE INJURY PLAYER AND THE THIRD POSITION AND END WITH ONE PLAYER IN OLYMPIC SINGLES AND NO TEAM EVENT.

So you can't really mess with who qualifies except by choosing who goes to the qualification events. The rest is up to the players and their results.

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injury is not the only possibility: http://tabletennista.com/2014/11/china-s-history-of-match-fixing/

UpSideDownCarl said:

Not exactly. The third spot is not negotiable either. Xu Xin could not have replaced Ma Long except in the case of an injury.

And it is not a sacrifice the way you are thinking of it. If CNT had pulled Wang Hao out so that Ma Long and Zhang Jike could play singles, THEN THEY COULD NOT PLAY IN THE OLYMPIC TEAM EVENT BECAUSE THEY WOULD HAVE TO FORFEIT THEIR THIRD SPOT. If there was a legitimate injury, they could swap Ma Long in and have Xu Xin (the backup spot--he qualified 4th) to play the team event.

BUT IF THEY WERE CAUGHT BY OLYMPIC COMMITTEE DOCTORS FAKING AN INJURY TO SWAP, THEN THEY LOSE THE FAKE INJURY PLAYER AND THE THIRD POSITION AND END WITH ONE PLAYER IN OLYMPIC SINGLES AND NO TEAM EVENT.

So you can't really mess with who qualifies except by choosing who goes to the qualification events. The rest is up to the players and their results.

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Ah I see, so then I guess who is sent to the qualification is up to coaches, how many players does each country get to send? If there are 3 players for qualification and say it's ML, ZJK and Xu Xin does that mean unless there is an injury or a pullout for another legitimate reason then FZD has no chance?

If I understand correctly then who goes to qualification means very much are the coache's choices for the team provided they qualify.

Well I think .. My idea is, that the big four always secures, that the decision is always between them.
If Ma Long, Fan Zhendong and Xu Xin see that Zhan Jike is not doing well in the qualifications or trials, they would purposely lose to him to give him needed wins so he can qualify. The real fight will be after it just between players of the big 4.
That is what I think. And I think this already happened.. Just watch the results of the previous trials and you will find some completely weird loses that in the result secured the big 4 fighting for the places (before it was Wang Hao instead of Fan, of course..)

For this World Cup, well I really hope Ma Long will win, he is the real Captain. Fan is the beast, but comparing to Ma Long he is a no brainer. I am not saying he is stupid, just.. compared to Ma Long..

If Ma Long will be recovered from the injury, there is no force stopping him to get this one!

I am not sure. But there will be several events where players can qualify for the games.

Last time China had 4 qualified. But the order in which they qualify mattered. Xu Xin qualified 4th which means all he could be was a backup and the only reason he would have been allowed to play would have been a legitimate injury confirmed by Olympic Committee doctors. The IOC (International Olympic Committee) is used to having countries attempt to bend the rules.

I am not sure how many people China can send to trials. But I think there are going to be a bunch of tournaments where the winner can qualify.

By the way, in the lead up to 2012 Olymics Ma Long went to the Asian qualification tournament and so did Xu Xin. Neither of them won. Ma Long did not come in first in the Asian qualifications without Wang Hao or Zhang Jike there.

He lost in the finals of the first round to Koki Niwa. Then he won the second round.


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I think XX didnt even get to play in the olympic asian qualification trials. Probably because china had already 2 players qualified so only 1 slot was allowed? taken by ML. Im guessing this because PRK had 3 players qualified all of them winning the trials.

http://www.ittf.com/World_Events/2012OG/Specific_Reg.pdf

You can see at the rules that, even if a player does not qualify after the trials, then the team can play with 2 players.

Rayeez said:

Why is Jimmy butler in this? I'd never heard of him until just now!

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Here is Jim Butler in 1996 vs Waldner:


His story is a great one. In the early 1990s be was a top player. Around 2000 he had some health issue and debilitating pain that stopped him from being able to play. I believe it was from a back injury. Over the last three years he has made a big and almost impossible comeback.

I believe he qualified for the World Cup by winning this tournament:


I have seen some footage from 1992 where he looked amazing and had one of the best backhands of that time. The next time I am at a computer I will see if I can find better footage. But, hopefully, this answers your question. He actually won an event that qualified him to play in the World Cup. And being in his 40s alone would make it pretty impressive. But add the recover from injury after being told he would never play again adds to that.

Does he have a chance of advancing past the first round? Probably not. But still, he did earn his spot.


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