Why is Japanese Penhold less popular these days?

ProPetrov · Oct 10, 2015

These days 90% of the people play shakehand, 9% play Chinese penhold and less than 1% play Japanese penhold.

I know that the backhand is a weakness of the Jpen style but Ryu Seung Min prove that if you have a good footwork it can be as effective as shakehand. IMO the strongest forehands in the game were made with Jpen.

Do you know a Jpen pro player in 2015?

Thanks

MegaZZ · Oct 10, 2015

Korean player Lee Jungwoo? I think if you only talk about forehand then Cpen Xu Xin's is also very impressive with fantastic footwork, still he often gets caught on the BH against people who really know how to play against this style. It's the bane of penhold play.

Also many receives are easier with a BH shot, especially the banana flicks.

Tokieboi · Oct 10, 2015

Moon Hyunjung from South Korea. Reach semifinal in this year Australia Open.

Shiro · Oct 10, 2015

Japanese Penhold is often not popular due to the lack of using the backside. Japanese penhold, from what i saw, used to be very popular during the speed glue era. Also, it seems as receiving is difficult as well.

Hamasaki_Fanz · Oct 10, 2015

because of the chiquita ppl nowaday are using, JPEN cant provide that

ProPetrov · Oct 10, 2015

Shiro said:
Japanese Penhold is often not popular due to the lack of using the backside. Japanese penhold, from what i saw, used to be very popular during the speed glue era. Also, it seems as receiving is difficult as well.

It's true that Jpen can't perform a backhand topspin, but if the player know how to use the footwork properly, it can hit almost always with the forehand. Like in this video:

Of course, the best option for penholders these days is learning Chinese Penhold with the Reverse Backhand

violoniste18 · Oct 10, 2015

thank you for the name of the penhold player "Moon Hyunjung", i didn't know him.

countrybread · Oct 11, 2015

Moon Hyunjung is a female, a very good jpen player, and would have done very well in that tournament if not for Ai Fukuhara. So it isn't that a jpen player isn't able to exert an effective backhand strategy, its that its quite awkward to create a backhand topspin. So they mostly attack from one wing. The preference, these days, is two wing attackers. At least with cpen you can theoretically do both.

But the original point is interesting. Since there is such a miniscule percentage of jpen players, even less than defenders, why do I see so many new jpen blades on the market? I think there's even more jpen blades then defensive blades.

Pnachtwey · Oct 11, 2015

A c-pen player that was originally from China told me that when he was in high school the coaches pushed using shake hands grip. If the Chinese coaches are pushing shake hands grips then only the old timers will still be play c-pen.

I have a practice partner that is 66 yo. He has always played c-pen but when I showed him RPB he was a natural at it. It is easy to loop with the back side of the c-pen paddle. Chops and pushes are effective too because of wrist action. RPB is a viable option to shake hands.

We have one J-pen player the club. He is one of the better players and plays defensively. He has T05 on the front and long pips for chopping on the backside. I wouldn't say a j-pen player can't play with the backside because I have seen it done successfully.

ProPetrov · Oct 11, 2015

Pnachtwey said:
A c-pen player that was originally from China told me that when he was in high school the coaches pushed using shake hands grip. If the Chinese coaches are pushing shake hands grips then only the old timers will still be play c-pen.

I have a practice partner that is 66 yo. He has always played c-pen but when I showed him RPB he was a natural at it. It is easy to loop with the back side of the c-pen paddle. Chops and pushes are effective too because of wrist action. RPB is a viable option to shake hands.

We have one J-pen player the club. He is one of the better players and plays defensively. He has T05 on the front and long pips for chopping on the backside. I wouldn't say a j-pen player can't play with the backside because I have seen it done successfully.

I have a friend that plays chinese penhold, and he told me the same: the chinese are not playing penhold anymore. I don't understand why, because as you said, if a c-pen player uses RPB it can be as effective as a shakehands.

A Jpen player with long pips on the backhand? I've never heard that before, however, it can be effective, because the oponents won't expect that setup.

ProPetrov · Oct 11, 2015

countrybread said:
Moon Hyunjung is a female, a very good jpen player, and would have done very well in that tournament if not for Ai Fukuhara. So it isn't that a jpen player isn't able to exert an effective backhand strategy, its that its quite awkward to create a backhand topspin. So they mostly attack from one wing. The preference, these days, is two wing attackers. At least with cpen you can theoretically do both.

But the original point is interesting. Since there is such a miniscule percentage of jpen players, even less than defenders, why do I see so many new jpen blades on the market? I think there's even more jpen blades then defensive blades.

In the USA or in Europe, there are almost no Jpen players, but in Korea and Japan is still popular, however, the new generations are switching to shakehand.

brabhamista · Oct 11, 2015

ProPetrov said:
I have a friend that plays chinese penhold, and he told me the same: the chinese are not playing penhold anymore. I don't understand why, because as you said, if a c-pen player uses RPB it can be as effective as a shakehands.

It's not about the possible outcome of a shakehander and a penholder becoming equally effective, because they definitively can. Basically it's about which grip requires less time to achieve the coach's goals.

In this case shakehand is a shortcut in comparison. It's said that to build a skilful shakehander you'll need 5-ish years whereas bringing a penholder to the same level takes 7. In other words, as a coach, what would your choice be? The shortest, cheapest, easiest road to the same successful end result, IMHO.

ProPetrov · Oct 11, 2015

brabhamista said:
It's not about the possible outcome of a shakehander and a penholder becoming equally effective, because they definitively can. Basically it's about which grip requires less time to achieve the coach's goals.

In this case shakehand is a shortcut in comparison. It's said that to build a skilful shakehander you'll need 5-ish years whereas bringing a penholder to the same level takes 7. In other words, as a coach, what would your choice be? The shortest, cheapest, easiest road to the same successful end result, IMHO.

I don't think shakehand is a shortcut, because when I started playing, I was using both grips and penhold was easier and more confortable for me (only for me, all the club members were playing shakehand).

I think the learning time depends on the training hours, the coach and talent of the player

BTW: I saw that you are using a Butterfly Senkoh 5,

Is it a good blade?

Can you use RPB well with it?

Thanks

Ilia Minkin · Oct 11, 2015

ProPetrov said:
I have a friend that plays chinese penhold, and he told me the same: the chinese are not playing penhold anymore.

Penhold is still alive http://tabletennista.com/2015/7/chinese-team-focuses-on-penhold-players/ !

MDanielCRO · Oct 11, 2015

It's not only using footwork properly, RSM is extraordinary fast. Not everyone can play JPEN

Der_Echte · Oct 11, 2015

countrybread said:
Moon Hyunjung is a female, a very good jpen player, and would have done very well in that tournament if not for Ai Fukuhara. So it isn't that a jpen player isn't able to exert an effective backhand strategy, its that its quite awkward to create a backhand topspin. So they mostly attack from one wing. The preference, these days, is two wing attackers. At least with cpen you can theoretically do both.

But the original point is interesting. Since there is such a miniscule percentage of jpen players, even less than defenders, why do I see so many new jpen blades on the market? I think there's even more jpen blades then defensive blades.

I dunna know, but J-Pen among the hardcore supporters is gunna die damed hard.

In Korea, coaches will not coach J-Pen any moar and do everything they can to discourage new players from using J-Pen. Old days EVERYONE used J-Pen, nowadays, only O40 / O50 crowd holdouts use it and they are damned skilled.

UpSideDownCarl · Oct 11, 2015

I say we make 'me all switch to the Seemiller grip.

Sent from GroundZero from my NanoWeaponOfMassDestruction

brabhamista · Oct 12, 2015

ProPetrov said:
I don't think shakehand is a shortcut, because when I started playing, I was using both grips and penhold was easier and more confortable for me (only for me, all the club members were playing shakehand).

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. Shakehand in itself isn't a shortcut, but in comparison, if you as a coach want a certain student to reach a certain level, it will take longer for that to happen with penhold.

ProPetrov said:
I think the learning time depends on the training hours, the coach and talent of the player

Yes, of course, but it also depends on what technique you are learning.

Let's say the coach wants to bring a player to World ranking No 1500 (just a random example). Let's also assume the player and the coach are the same people in these two examples (same skills, same "talent". Everything is the same except the technique taught)

Same coach + same student + same goal WR1500 + shakehand = 5 years to reach
Same coach + same student + same goal WR1500 + penhold = 7 years to reach

This is not my idea, it's a theory from within the Chinese coaching system. I read it in an article over here years ago: http://home.covad.net/chunglau/ttindex.htm

The site is an index of English translations of Chinese TT articles. I can't say which article the snippet is in, because I'm afraid I've have forgotten (and there are just too many to sift through to find it quickly). In any case, it's well worth having a look at the articles. They are great reading if you're interested in table tennis and some of them give great insight into Chinese attitudes towards practise, tactics and reading and playing your opponent.

So I still believe one of the reasons penholders are slowly disappearing at higher levels is about pure economy - it simply takes much longer to achieve the same results as with a shakehander.

brabhamista · Oct 12, 2015

ProPetrov said:
BTW: I saw that you are using a Butterfly Senkoh 5,
Is it a good blade?
Can you use RPB well with it?
Thanks

Senkoh-5 is a fantastic blade with excellent speed and control if you play short pips over the table. It has a balsa core and hinoki outer layers.

In my experience, it's one of the best short pip blades there is. However, if you step back 2 meters or slap inverted on the Senkoh-5 expecting great spin, it is not going to work very well at all. It lacks oomph at medium and long distance and lacks dwelltime to suit inverted rubbers and a spin oriented game.

RPB works on it, but it's not great. To be honest I use RPB mainly as an opening option with a banana flick or slow, spinny topspin and to lift backspin. In rallies I prefer traditional penhold backhand blocks as they are much quicker to execute and much easier to exploit the angles with. I really need that as I'm playing very close to the table.

In short, Senkoh-5 is adequate for RPB, but it's a little to stiff and lacks dwell time to be truly good. It's also limited by its smaller head size. If you want to rely on RPB for most of your backhand shots, I'd recommend you to look for a different blade.
On the other hand, if you play short pips FH... welcome to heaven

brabhamista · Oct 12, 2015

Ilia Minkin said:
Penhold is still alive http://tabletennista.com/2015/7/chinese-team-focuses-on-penhold-players/ !

I'm so incredibly excited about Xue Fei as the up-and-coming future of penholders. Possibly without good reason. But screw reasons. I'm a romantic, not an effing scientist!

Why is Japanese Penhold less popular these days?

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