Problems in games

I actually think he is talking about doing block drills well and not handling the randomness of matchplay particularly handling backspin. I could be wrong. But, given what he said when he answered my questions, I think that is what is going on. It is the phenomenon of looking like a world beater when someone is blocking right to you and you keep looping. And then in a match the balls that are coming back at you are not as easy to handle; some are heavy loops, some are dead, some are backspin and every ball is different and put in different places too.

I could be wrong but I think that is what is actually going on here.

UpSideDownCarl said:

I actually think he is talking about doing block drills well and not handling the randomness of matchplay particularly handling backspin. I could be wrong. But, given what he said when he answered my questions, I think that is what is going on. It is the phenomenon of looking like a world beater when someone is blocking right to you and you keep looping. And then in a match the balls that are coming back at you are not as easy to handle; some are heavy loops, some are dead, some are backspin and every ball is different and put in different places too.

I could be wrong but I think that is what is actually going on here.

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So you don't think that psychology can be a factor in a problem like that as well as various training methods? I know that sometimes I play better in practice matches (where its all random but still a match) than in a tournament match where my backhand might be way off.

Psychological issues are the popular reason why people choke. IMO, unless you were clearly upset or nervous or having a panic attack or missing shots that you usually make in practice, the issues are overhyped.

The simple way to see this is to see what happens when people practice things that they will use directly in matches and prepare for the situations they complain about. The error rates go down, the rating goes up, but they start finding new ways to say they choked.

agold said:

So you don't think that psychology can be a factor in a problem like that as well as various training methods? I know that sometimes I play better in practice matches (where its all random but still a match) than in a tournament match where my backhand might be way off.

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NextLevel said:

Psychological issues are the popular reason why people choke. IMO, unless you were clearly upset or nervous or having a panic attack or missing shots that you usually make in practice, the issues are overhyped.

The simple way to see this is to see what happens when people practice things that they will use directly in matches and prepare for the situations they complain about. The error rates go down, the rating goes up, but they start finding new ways to say they choked.

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I could be wrong but I asked: "manosb, do you do any game simulation training like serve and receive drills?"

And he said:

manosb said:

No.The only thing we do is a fixed type of serve then i cut and then the other one attacks. But the problem for me isn't receiving serves or making serves but using spin and cuts and backhand drive in game correctly(correct technique) as i do in training

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I get the feeling that the only time he practices stuff that you actually do in games, is in games. The drill he describes is that the coach serves, he pushes, and the coach opens and then he counters or blocks. My guess is that he doesn't practice opening against the third ball.

If you don't get to practice opening or any other game skills and then you are in a game, nerves are not as much the issue as the fact that you have not trained for any of the stuff that really happens in a game. Yeah, he may be nervous. But it is not the actual issue. Once he has trained against the stuff, does it well in practice and is still nervous in games, and messes up, then nerves are an issue.

But it sounds like he is training for a swim meet and then all of a sudden finding he is supposed to do a high jump and doesn't know how to do it. But thinks, I swam so well. Why can't I do this now?

How can you backhand drive against backspin correctly if you have never faced it? It is not the same thing as backhand drive vs topspin.

manosb said:

I practise backhand loop on underspin rarely but recently i started using it in a match and it worked.I will follow your advice and let the other one push anywhere

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Then, in practice, you have to face all the serves, especially the ones you have trouble with.

UpSideDownCarl said:

First thing to do is watch this video:

That may explain some of what is going on.

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Awesome video. Very insightful!

I don't know if anyone has already posted this idea. But here goes anyway, and this is what I do.

1. I work with a coach to learn a technique
2. Block drill that technique, just like in the video Carl posted earlier.
3. Try to apply that proper technique in practice hitting with my partner. (Whatever you learn, learn it right, and practice it right!!!!!) Get rid of bad mechanics immediately and keep bad mechanics to a minimum.
4. In real match situations, learn before you win! What I mean by that is this. No matter how much you lose, always play with proper technique! Don't play to win all the time, play to learn how to perform proper technique under any circumstances. Because when you do start winning, you'll be winning with proper technique and you'll be a much stronger player than those who cheat on the technique. May take you a little longer to start winning consistently than others, but it's worth it!

I can tell you this. Some people will catch on faster than others. For example, my first goal was to have a very spinny underspin serve when I was just learning to play. I worked at it and got it pretty good. I noticed I began to win a few easy points from much better players simply because of that one skill. Others who had been playing longer than me couldn't put as much spin on the serve as I could. Now I can perform that one skill anytime I want at a high success rate. They used to clip the net, or go off the end of the table, or I'd miss the ball completely. In practice and games, win or lose, I stuck to it.

5. Everyone is going to have some natural shot that's comfortable. Use it! Then build others skills around what you do well. Example: (If you move well, scramble and get the ball back) - later on, work on and add a running loop or chop or something else you've worked on. Basically I'm just saying, what you naturally do good, do it! And constantly seek to build other skills around what you naturally do well.

Kevin,

You are a smart man.

NextLevel said:

Kevin,

You are a smart man.

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Thanks man. I been reading you guys stuff and it's rubbing off. Lol

Kevin's post gives us insight into how NextLevel's BH is such a beast.


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UpSideDownCarl said:

Kevin's post gives us insight into how NextLevel's BH is such a beast.


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The friggin' Beast of Burden.

NextLevel said:

Psychological issues are the popular reason why people choke. IMO, unless you were clearly upset or nervous or having a panic attack or missing shots that you usually make in practice, the issues are overhyped.

The simple way to see this is to see what happens when people practice things that they will use directly in matches and prepare for the situations they complain about. The error rates go down, the rating goes up, but they start finding new ways to say they choked.

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I'll respectfully disagree NL, psychology plays a huge part in competitive sport.
Psychology is inextricably linked to physiology, they are partners in crime.
The book 'Get your game face on like the pro's' by Dora Kurimay and Kathy Toon has changed my whole outlook on this subject.
It is a game changer so to speak.

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Hey, I don't think NextLevel was saying psychology doesn't play a big role. But when you have someone who is trying to make shots against kinds of balls he has never faced, then practicing vs those circumstances may be a more immediate issue. A player who has never played, practiced or trained against a long pips player is probably going to have trouble no matter how good the player's technique in a topspin to topspin rally is. Or, in this case, a guy who has only trained against one serve, is probably not going to do so well against a whole bunch of different serves. A guy who never practices opening vs randomly placed pushes probably will have a lot of trouble on his 3rd balls.

And until you have trained and developed decent technique on the things you face in games, nerves are not as much of an issue to try and work on as technique. If you have trained on those things and are good at them in practice and then mess up in match play on the shots you groove in practice, then that is more likely nerves and mental outlook and will be best handled through sports psychology. So sports psychology may be huge. Especially for players who are fundamentally sound already. But it is probably not the first thing to focus on in this situation.

For someone who is good at topspin to topspin rallies and nothing else, to focus on psychology and ignore the gaping wholes in game skill techniques would be a bit foolish.


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UpSideDownCarl said:

Hey, I don't think NextLevel was saying psychology doesn't play a big role. But when you have someone who is trying to make shots against kinds of balls he has never faced, then practicing vs those circumstances may be a more immediate issue. A player who has never played, practiced or trained against a long pips player is probably going to have trouble no matter how good the player technique in a topspin to topspin rally is. Or, in this case, a guy who has only trained against one serve, is probably not going to do so well against a whole bunch of different serves. A guy who never practices opening vs randomly placed pushes probably will have a lot of trouble on his 3rd balls.


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Yeah I agree it can be a crutch for people as opposed to admitting your technique could be improved upon.
I'd never really considered the impact of mental training until last year and it's been the difference in my game this year.


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That video is good. Especially about anticipation but that comes from experience. I don't think there are easy fixes.

Get a camera! Cameras don't lie.
Get a coach that will do more than multi-ball you till exhausted. There needs to be some simulated game play or handicap games. Then the coach will need to play well to beat you and you will find where your weaknesses are.

I agree. maintaining mental focus when tired is key to my play.
It is funny how this topic has come up now.

Here's the problem from where I stand:

As an adult player that wasn't trained properly as a kid, I have numerous technical problems and timing problems throughout my game, even on most of my basic strokes. Now, I find it impossible to correct these issues in a random type environment. While I agree that random practice leads to better retention and better short term performance for tournaments/competitions, I just don't see where I can find the TIME to fit any of it in, as most of my available practice time goes towards correcting the fundamental technical issues that are capping my game. I suppose if I had time for two training sessions daily, I could divide the work into a block session and a random session. But what working, fat adult player has the time or energy for that?

Understanding how to best allocate my time is the hardest part of table tennis for me.

johnbhoy72 said:

Yeah I agree it can be a crutch for people as opposed to admitting your technique could be improved upon.
I'd never really considered the impact of mental training until last year and it's been the difference in my game this year.


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As Carl said, I am talking about the fact that even the mental game improves when pressure situations are practiced. IF you play deuce alternating serve matches a lot, your game at deuce points improves. I play a lot of tournaments so i can write a lot about the mental game, especially in the USA where rating points can put you under pressure for no good reason if you let them.

I am currently mentoring someone who is largely a beginner and its frustrating to hear him focus on the mental game when based on what I know about his training, he has inevitable gaps that will be bridged with experience if he is patient. Even if you practice hard and play well in practice matches, it takes about 6 months on average (a number pushed around by many coaches independently, but I wish it had stronger empirical support) to get your practice /drill skills to show up comfortably and expertly in matches.

Table tennis is complicated, but you have to spend a lot of timing understanding it and playing it decently before you start thinking you have psychological issues. When you set hard goals for yourself, you will face challenges, but you have to talk to people to understand what is the norm and what is a deviation.

I will tell a story about myself. I started playing tournaments in 2011 and by 2012 December with good coaching, I had become a decent/strong intermediate player (after some ups and downs in 2012 because of personal relationship issues). I expected to continue to improve by my progress stalled and I suffered lots of upset losses. The low point for me was losing to a decent player who limped and often chopped (With inverted rubber on both sides) 0-3, 0-11 in the last game.

On the way back home from the tournament, where the juniors with whom I often play had played excellently and won prizes, I asked my coach and the juniors what I was doing wrong. And my coach told me to listen to the juniors, because your opponents know where they get their points off you. And the juniors said I refused to spin the ball. And I argued that I did spin the ball, and they said that no that I didn't. So I spent a lot of time working on my forehand and learning to loop with my backhand. I beat two opponents significantly above my rating after I committed to spinning the ball more on both sides. The guy who beat me 0-11 started suffering a series of bad losses to me immediately I started spinning on both sides and now, we don't even act as if we are rivals or anything like that as I have left that level of play behind.

So the easy answer would have been to say that I was a choker. But the truth is that it is hard to control the ball when you don't topspin or know how to consistently generate it. While many people do choke, choking is really about nervous pressure driving down your level, and things like sweaty palms, panic attacks, serving the ball into the net when match point up/down etc. should not be confused with missing smashes, flat hitting the ball long, looping backspin into the net or losses to long pips players who are at a lower level than you.

SchemeSC said:

Here's the problem from where I stand:

As an adult player that wasn't trained properly as a kid, I have numerous technical problems and timing problems throughout my game, even on most of my basic strokes. Now, I find it impossible to correct these issues in a random type environment. While I agree that random practice leads to better retention and better short term performance for tournaments/competitions, I just don't see where I can find the TIME to fit any of it in, as most of my available practice time goes towards correcting the fundamental technical issues that are capping my game. I suppose if I had time for two training sessions daily, I could divide the work into a block session and a random session. But what working, fat adult player has the time or energy for that?

Understanding how to best allocate my time is the hardest part of table tennis for me.

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It's largely because you don't play enough. Another story about me - in 2012, I had switched coaches and my new coach had helped me get to a new rating high in the 1500s or so. We then went to a tournament together and he watched me play (I went 1-10 or so on that day). After I lost my last match 0-3, he said, "We're going to take your whole game apart when we get back home - you look like you had no clue what you should be doing out there."

So what my coach does and did was simplify my game by making me build a part of my game go a level where it was so good that I would feel impregnably confident about it. My coach has an incredible backhand and mine was my strength (with a few issues) so we worked on my backhand for about a month. We worked on it so much that my coach lost money betting against me because he didn't know how well he had worked on my backhand - he made it so good that I won a match that he thought I was going to lose.

So till today, my backhand is the rock of my game. Everything else is built so that it allows me to camouflage my backhand more easily, but I don't get confused as to who pays the bills in my game. If you haven't decided how your game is designed to win points, then your training will be confused. My game is largely simple - serve, third ball, and if neither is open, try to get a rally along the backhand diagonal because I have more control there. On receive, I attack or push heavy with my backhand, and usually to my opponent's backhand and start that matchup. If they come to my FH short, I usually go to their BH unless they prove that it is too risky then I start trying to go to their FH wide.

The worst thing you can do is to let your thoughts about the technical issues in your game affect how you play - that is a waste of time. You take the skills you have and you use them to fight. THe one thing you must always try to do is introduce your weapons early. Shoot first and you will usually live to fight another day. Shoot second, you may never shoot again.