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  1. Hamasaki_Fanz is offline
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    #1

    Two types of backhand flick

    While watching World Cup, Dan is interested with what Japanese call 'chiquita'. So, I make this thread as an FYI thread that there are two types of backhand flick (which I think in English, you guys call it both banana flick, which one is actually not).

    EDIT: GO TO 1:54, for some reason the embedded video wont automatically go to 1m54s


    The first one is chiquita:
    Ball is hit on the perpendicular side of the spin. For example, if the ball is pure underspin, you hit it on the left (a little bit bottom, so kind of bottom-left). This way your rubber won't eat the spin of the ball and you can lift the ball easily. The result is a spinny side spin ball (with slight/almost no topspin)

    The second one is what japanese call daijou doraibu (drive), which basically where you eat the spin of ball and overcome it with your wrist strength to lift the ball. The result is a topspin ball.

    Players who do chiquita are for example: Koki Niwa, Fan Zhen Dong, Jun Mizutani, Kenta Matsudaira
    Players who do daijou doraibu are for example: Zhang Ji ke, Ma Long, Xu Xin, Jun Mizutani

    EDIT: I add some videos

    Some chiquita videos:
    Code:
    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%E3%83%81%E3%82%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF

    Some daijou drive videos:
    Code:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPj_cuHB7qo 
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5krNjX0LZ_g

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    Last edited by Hamasaki_Fanz; 10-18-2015 at 04:01 PM.

  2. Der_Echte is offline
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    #2
    Der_Echte is capable as a sucky amature player, capable of many BH shots. I really take pride that I am outstanding in some and really suck rocks in some others.

    As much as it is good to be safe and do Chaquita style safe slow BH flip, I really like the direct path to the ball with solid impact.

    Anyone can feel free to call me a crazy gook, it's alright.

    Such a thing is worthy of BOTH meaningful lengthy technical and opinionated discussion, as well as flame wars to the extreme.

    Oh yeah, we also got to find a way to hijack it and make people jump off bridges for no good reason. If not, it wouldn't have that TTD flavor.

    Good thread start Fanz.

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    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Der_Echte is capable as a sucky amature player, capable of many BH shots. I really take pride that I am outstanding in some and really suck rocks in some others.

    As much as it is good to be safe and do Chaquita style safe slow BH flip, I really like the direct path to the ball with solid impact.

    Anyone can feel free to call me a crazy gook, it's alright.

    Such a thing is worthy of BOTH meaningful lengthy technical and opinionated discussion, as well as flame wars to the extreme.

    Oh yeah, we also got to find a way to hijack it and make people jump off bridges for no good reason. If not, it wouldn't have that TTD flavor.

    Good thread start Fanz.
    It's all Dan's fault he forces me to as he had an interest in this topic matter from the live stream chat

    Anyway, fellow sucky player here, I agree. Chiquita is much easier but still I can't do it fast enough. I still have to take a bet that the serve will be short or at least half long. The daijou drive one is too risky, and if your wrist is not strong enough you will eat the shame for hitting the ball on your own side of the table

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    #4
    Hey Hamasaki_Fanz,

    Great discussion. This is really interesting, something I haven't really thought about before. Thanks for sharing this with me.

    This makes a lot of sense... I usually go for the Daijou Doraibu backhand shot. My old coach who was from China use to be penhold and used the Chiquita shot for his backhand and he could produce sidespin/backspin, it was so hard to receive. I can imagine this is how Xu Xin's is.

    Ovtcharov uses the Daijou Doraibu method.

    Do you think the real heavy backspin serves etc you should use the Chiquita approach?

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    #5
    Haha I like the language of "having to take a bet" beacuse at our levels it is so true.

    Haha I really like you blame Dan for something, another TTD tradition. You are fitting in here nicely.

    I agree that if you do not read the ball right OR fail to move in, you are eating your enemy's dust and sucking hind tit for sure.

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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamasaki_Fanz
    It's all Dan's fault he forces me to as he had an interest in this topic matter from the live stream chat

    Anyway, fellow sucky player here, I agree. Chiquita is much easier but still I can't do it fast enough. I still have to take a bet that the serve will be short or at least half long. The daijou drive one is too risky, and if your wrist is not strong enough you will eat the shame for hitting the ball on your own side of the table
    Agreed, this is the big problem I find with flicks. You have to read the serve well, whether it will be short of long. Fan Zhendong picks up the short or long serve so incredibly easy. I also think players in their mind are thinking they must serve short to Fan Zhendong to avoid the big attacks, so Fan Zhendong is ready for the short ball to flick.

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    #7
    Haha Dan, I would REALLY like to know your thought process (and that of your TT associates) of your decision making process of what to do for your short aggressive receives.

    Would also be more than good to hear the "Fanz" opinions and thought process to, but I suspect he is like me, more of a forum facilitator than a top elite player.

    Haha, Dan never really chips in on coaching discussions so often (maybe his elite amature level he has been there and done that more than sufficiently enough) so this will be an interesting discussion 4 sure.
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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan
    Hey Hamasaki_Fanz,

    Great discussion. This is really interesting, something I haven't really thought about before. Thanks for sharing this with me.

    This makes a lot of sense... I usually go for the Daijou Doraibu backhand shot. My old coach who was from China use to be penhold and used the Chiquita shot for his backhand and he could produce sidespin/backspin, it was so hard to receive. I can imagine this is how Xu Xin's is.

    Ovtcharov uses the Daijou Doraibu method.

    Do you think the real heavy backspin serves etc you should use the Chiquita approach?
    Yeah, you definitely use the daijou drive one, and it's awesome. I can't do that unless the backspin is minimum. Maybe my wrist not strong enough? not sure, I just can't do it @[email protected]

    From the video, he explains that at first it was only chiquita, but it's not strong enough, because the ball is slower (almost no topspin). So the Chinese brought the technique to perfection, the Daijou doraibu (faster ball, with topspin).

    Not sure for professional player because their wrist strength is different with us normal player, maybe they can even lift the heaviest backspin (as long as it's short), but definitely chiquita is easier and much safer. Plus noobs like us can't really handle side spin ball hahahaha
    Last edited by Hamasaki_Fanz; 10-18-2015 at 03:54 PM.

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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamasaki_Fanz
    Yeah, you definitely use the daijou drive one, and it's awesome. I can't do that unless the backspin is minimum. Maybe my wrist not strong enough? not sure, I just can't do it @[email protected]

    From the video, he explains that at first it was only chiquita, but it's not strong enough, because the ball is slower (almost no topspin). So the Chinese brought the technique to perfection, the Daijou doraibu (faster ball, with topspin).

    Not sure for professional player because their wrist strength is different with us normal player, maybe they can even lift the heaviest backspin (as long as it's short), but definitely chiquita is easier and much safer. Plus noobs like us can't really handle side spin ball hahahaha
    Haha totally, I know what you mean! interesting, I wonder if it is strength, technique, or wrist speed acceleration? My Chinese coach who taught me this shot actually made me do a lot of wrist strength training using a bucket full of rice and I had to scrunch my hands in it each day (5 x 30 second intervals). I wonder if this helped the flick?

    Much be a combination of everyone, like most things

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    #10
    As a BH lover, I cannot say with a straight face that most humans are incapable of using good leverage and explosion on BH. I think it is simply a matter of timing and energy transfer. Once someone gets it in that area, they become dangerous on that shot.

    Huge problem is you gotta read the location of the ball and its spin. Of course you can overcome a lot of it with your impact, but that is a fail when you do not see where the ball is going and you are indecisive in your movement to the ball or as the Germans say in the Andro training vid... "Der Tanz zum Ball" The dance to the ball.
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    #11
    I added some more videos...

    Btw, Dan, as someone who can do the daijou drive, is there a limit where you can't do the daijou drive? like, Oh this one is too heavy (too much backspin) I can't do it. Because with chiquita I think I can lift over any short ball as long as I hit the ball on the correct side with the right timing.

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    #12
    I think the top players don't just do one they do both. Although they are different techniques they are just two ends of a spectrum. The more backspin is on the ball the more side-spin you need to put on the ball to get it over the net.

    Chiquita <-------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Daijou
    Backspin<----------------------------------No spin--------------------------------------> Topspin

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    #13
    lgreggs has made an excellent point. But also don't forget the classic flat flick, which is still used when the ball is popped up.

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    #14
    And here is my absolutely favorite video about the topspin flick, it inspired me a lot.

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    #15
    These is the best videos I know for learning the backhand loop and backhand flick and I am not as convinced as some that FZD falls in the Chiquita category. I believe he definitely uses both.



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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by lgreggs
    I think the top players don't just do one they do both. Although they are different techniques they are just two ends of a spectrum. The more backspin is on the ball the more side-spin you need to put on the ball to get it over the net.

    Chiquita <-------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Daijou
    Backspin<----------------------------------No spin--------------------------------------> Topspin
    I don't agree with the details as contact point is not the same thing as resulting spin. The real issue is that a sidespin ball lacks stabilizing topspin and is more risky to hit hard and fast. Since the Chinese prioritize speed over trickiness, they will usually look for the power shot.
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    #17

    Two types of backhand flick

    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Anyone can feel free to call me a crazy gook, it's alright.
    Cool. I get to call Der_Echte a crazy, well, a crazy. But that is just to call him a crazy. Not because of anything he said. Hahahahaha.

    Michael Landers uses both. Every so often when he hits with me he will clown around and say, check this out. And flip one of my serves and it will be the one you are calling Chiquita, and like Dan said, it will be a crazy backspin flip. Totally nasty. If you misread it your done. Hahaha.


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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamasaki_Fanz
    I added some more videos...

    Btw, Dan, as someone who can do the daijou drive, is there a limit where you can't do the daijou drive? like, Oh this one is too heavy (too much backspin) I can't do it. Because with chiquita I think I can lift over any short ball as long as I hit the ball on the correct side with the right timing.
    In the 2015 Asian Championships MT-Final CHINA Vs JAPAN Zhang Jike vs Ouya Oshima even Zhang Jike got problem from Oshimas super spinny serves.

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    #19
    Dan executing chiquita on 3:12


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    #20
    A while ago I saw or read and interview with Koki Niwa about this return, and he said his choice depended on the spin of the incoming serve and its placement. That determined whether he would come around the side of the ball or try to drive it. The other aspect he mentioned, if I recall correctly, is deciding where to place his return, which factored in to which return he chose. It all gets quite complicated.

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