Why are Evolution rubbers still less popular than tenergy?

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And to add to my previous point:

So what if this topic has been covered a million (or even 10 million) times, what gives you the right to assume I cannot make my own comment on it??! and it may have been covered for YOU - but it was not covered for ME.
I would assume you are gracious enough to let people excercise their right of freedom of speech?
And finally, I only came by this information recently, and thought I would add it to the debate. Thats why its called a FORUM my friend - everyone is free to make comments - without getting insulted, or on the receiving end of silly assumptions.
Responding to a post made 2 years ago in the way you made it given the changes in ball technology and even rubbers since I made it is deserving of the response BRS gave.

You could add it to the debate as your own opinion. As a response to me, it is just ridiculous.
 
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Not for the first time, you come across as very defensive (or perhaps even aggressive?) with your choice of words mate. I find that (general attitude on this forum over the years) ridiculous, although frankly unsurprising.
 
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Not for the first time, you come across as very defensive (or perhaps even aggressive?) with your choice of words mate. I find that (general attitude on this forum over the years) ridiculous, although frankly unsurprising.


Usually, when someone posts that a nameless top 100 player contradicts my opinion from 2 years ago, my first question is that since I am not hiding my real name nor my videos, who is this top player?

IT's been well established that what pros often use can have subtle differences from commercial versions. IT's also known that ESN brands have played relatively better with the plastic balls. My position originally arose from watching top 100 20 players who are Tibhar sponsored go to Butterfly because they wanted to stick with Tenergy (Freitas,Apolonia) and from comments from pros who preferred Tenergy. Some of it might be feel related, some of it is definitely conservatism. But there are enough pros using ESN rubbers now that MX-P is hardly a special rubber amongst ESN rubbers. The thing that makes MX-P stand out is that Tibhar got its top pros to use it (Samsonov, Drinkhall, CCA) while Dima stuck with T05, but there are a few pros using Bluefires etc.
 
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I am not so sure. I had a chat with a close friend who is a pro in the top 100 and he does not agree with you NextLevel.... AND he is sponsored by Butterfly... I would put it this way instead - Tenergy can still compete - but the other brands are now making more powerful, spinnier sheets. Just look at the rallies in T2 for instance, and look at the games of Paul vs the Butterfly players. In rallies where its spin vs spin and power v power - the butterfly players almost invariably lose - and always looking at their rubbers afterwards.... Nah - even I can see that Butterfly is no longer the leader in the tt space.

Somebody recently posted here the rackets of all the players at the 2016 ETTC. Still lots of really good players using Tenergy, if I remember correctly as much or more than everything else combined, and their livelihoods depend on their making the best decision. It seems likely that more powerful and spinnier is not all there is to it. (I know that to be the case). As to whether Btfly is still the leader in the TT space, I am curious then who is if they aren't? I note with some amusement that the latest Tibhar blade suitable for use by professionals is a blatant clone of a blade Butterfly introduced around 1993.

With that said, I am curious if Butterfly is working to go beyond the rubber they introduced in 2008. Rozena is basically Tenergy for Dummies (actually I like it a lot, so that proves my point).

Anyway, this is an old thread. One of the interesting things now to think about is whether it will actually be Rasanter-like rubbers that end up as the dominant ESN offerings?
 
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As to whether Btfly is still the leader in the TT space, I am curious then who is if they aren't?

On the biggest German forum people have been discussing the demise of BTY ever since their changed their price and distribution model. But contrary to what some Germans think Germany isn´t the world and BTY is still going strong.

I note with some amusement that the latest Tibhar blade suitable for use by professionals is a blatant clone of a blade Butterfly introduced around 1993.

Which one do you mean?

Isn´t the Force Pro Black Edition (suitable at least for Samsonov) a clone of an even older model (Clipper)?

With that said, I am curious if Butterfly is working to go beyond the rubber they introduced in 2008.

They took their time then, they might be taking their time now. In the early Tensor days they didn´t have much to offer, and the High Tune stuff pretty much sucked - but then out of nothing tenergy appeared.
The competition is close now, but Bryce High Speed preceeded the new ESN concept of thin topsheet (albeit not with extra-thick sponge) - so something could be in the making.
 
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The thing that makes MX-P stand out is that Tibhar got its top pros to use it (Samsonov, Drinkhall, CCA)

You have a point. But Victas and Gewo players use their sponsors equipment too. Victas is actually a well known and successful brand in Japan, while Gewo somehow doesn't get the attention it would deserve.

A little offtopic: CCA doesn't use Hybrid K1+? Or he is using it only on one side?
I know Samsonov not so long time ago played with Hybrid K1+ on one side (I assume on the BH instead of MX-S), it's still true?
 
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many people buy racket or rubber because of the name of the product and professional players use them, in my opinion, no matter how expensive or how famous of the rubbers or racket, if it is not suitable for your style or how you feel, they are no good for you. I played Penhold before and tried Shakehand for 5 yrs, using a lot of different rubbers and racket not because the name of the product, in order to see which one is good for me I tried a few, MX-P, MX-S, DHS , Long pimple, Short pimple... At the end I am using Mark V and I play Penhold now, people said Mark V is useless, I don,t agree, it suits me, that is why I use it.
 
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The best racket for me is called Koman, I wonder anybody knows about it but it is not expensive and the quality is so high.
 
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You have a point. But Victas and Gewo players use their sponsors equipment too. Victas is actually a well known and successful brand in Japan, while Gewo somehow doesn't get the attention it would deserve.

A little offtopic: CCA doesn't use Hybrid K1+? Or he is using it only on one side?
I know Samsonov not so long time ago played with Hybrid K1+ on one side (I assume on the BH instead of MX-S), it's still true?


Who is the top Gewo player? Victas has Niwa and Duda, I believe. The level of the user matters and is the selling point.

Aruna uses a 50+ degree (I have heard 58, but I am not sure) Rhyzm-P. Obviously he likely boosts it. One person who used Timo's and Samsonov's said the sponges were significantly harder than the commercially available versions.

On the other hand, I know people who use rubbers that might be not so great out of the package but when boosted, they play okay. One of the top US (junior) players using Maxxx-P out of the commercial package but boosts it - feels to soft to me, but again he plays at a very high USATT level and has beaten very strong Asian players. So in the end, I don't think about this stuff as much anymore because I don't work that hard on my TT.
 
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On the biggest German forum people have been discussing the demise of BTY ever since their changed their price and distribution model. But contrary to what some Germans think Germany isn´t the world and BTY is still going strong.



Which one do you mean?

Isn´t the Force Pro Black Edition (suitable at least for Samsonov) a clone of an even older model (Clipper)?



They took their time then, they might be taking their time now. In the early Tensor days they didn´t have much to offer, and the High Tune stuff pretty much sucked - but then out of nothing tenergy appeared.
The competition is close now, but Bryce High Speed preceeded the new ESN concept of thin topsheet (albeit not with extra-thick sponge) - so something could be in the making.

The blade Drinkhall uses is basically a Tibhar Viscaria. It is worth mentioning that Btfly dominates over ESN in Asia (especially in Japan). North American market is small but Btfly does well here with both blades and Tenergy.

I think Btfly makes things difficult for people who want to sell their stuff and shop owners I talked to in Europe tell me it is simply not worth the pain to carry Btfly. This seems part of a strange Btfly policy of doing what they can to piss off their customers and vendors. Clearly after several years ESN makes rubbers that are good for pro players. To say they have passed Btfly? I'm not convinced based on what pro players are actually using and certainly not in blade design, where increasingly the best a lot of companies can do is clone their products. Bear in mind that Btfly is also not generous in sponsorship agreements compared to other companies (at least this was the case a few years ago with a top US pro who is a close friend). Clearly some pro players are perfectly happy with other products now.

Btfly products work well and come with the highest possible quality control, but as a company they seem arrogant and stubborn and it will be come as a surprise to them if ESN or other companies come out with something that is unquestionably better than Tenergy that their current customers will abandon them in a nanosecond.

The idea that Btfly fanboys exist is a myth I think. Who can love a company that treats you like crap? I love their Viscaria blade, but I have a bunch of them and will not buy anymore, and the two best ones I have were made ten years ago and I bought them used. I hate being abused by their pricing policies. I used Tenergy 05 for years and now I don't. I found a rubber I like better (not one any pro would use). Actually I have found several. Mantra. Rasanter. Regalis. Karis.

I don't miss the price.
 
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It may seem to be that Butterfly are annoying their customers, unless you realize that their customers are the wholesale establishments that have virtual monopolies in their own countries. These distributors are required to keep the prices at a certain level, and can make as much profit from Butterfly as they want, because they have no competition with the same product at a lower price. They love Butterfly.

This used to be called Retail Price Maintenance in the UK, and was illegal until the 1960s. I worked in the hi fi business, which went crazy when RPM was removed, leading to the advent of massive discounts on products. The companies who managed to circumvent it, by cleverly and quietly restricting their dealerships to those who, under threat of sanctions, promised not to discount, managed to maintain their high prices and profits. As a result, a network of "respected" dealers (because they had the perceived high quality product), constantly extolled the "exceptional virtues" of those brands. You see how this becomes a circular effect. For everyone else, it was a race to the bottom.

It works in table tennis because the demand for the BTY name is high, largely because they sponsor the largest number of professional players, and make rubbers available to non-sponsored players at very advantageous rates. People talk a lot about what professionals use, but that is not where the money is made. I'm sure that someone on the forum knows how the CNT players come by Tenergy for their BH (those that use it), and I bet it isn't by going out and buying it themselves. If Jo "Local Pro" Public sees that the majority of top international players use Tenergy, he will be swayed, and to some extent pressured by peers, to use it too.

Paul Drinkhall said in the review on this site that he found MX-P was different to Tenergy, but that he can play just as well with either. I suspect this would be true of most players of that calibre.
 
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Paul Drinkhall said in the review on this site that he found MX-P was different to Tenergy, but that he can play just as well with either. I suspect this would be true of most players of that calibre.

As a Tibhar sponsored player, he´d better say so ...

But you still have a point.
 
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I notice Alvaro Robles, Enzo Angles, Alexander Valuch (prolly the front man) on http://www.gewo-tt.com/katalog/GEWO_Katalog/files/assets/basic-html/page-5.html .

This is a young generation growing up with their sponsor´s rubbers. They feel no need to play anything else since nowadays the ESN products are competitive. If you were a sponsored player say 8 or 10 years ago you might have traded your ESN "pro" rubber for a shop version tenergy at a 3:1 ratio - yes, it has happened and yes, I have seen it ...
 
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I actually played a little better with Tenergy 05 than MX-P but it took me a long time to figure it out. T05 allowed just a little better margin for error in real play.

Later I figured out, thanks to recommendations from people here and at MyTT, that what works best for me is a very linear rubber. So right now the answer for me as to T05 vs. MX-P is neither. That still amazes me. I used T05 from 2008 on, before that I used Bryce with speed glue (with a little period with an early tensors). I used MX-P for a month here or there within my Tenergy periods.

I am still amazed that a lot of what I thought I needed from a rubber, from about 1998 until January of this year, was pretty much wrong. I generate my own power now. But I don't beat myself as much.

(Actually though, I think EL-S is not bad, I prefer Rasanter, liked Mantra even better, and I am still using Karis M with great happiness).
 
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What is the most popular soft drink worldwide?
Why?
Long sweet history based on 50% of the profit invested in advertising every year.

What is the most popular TT rubber /or equipment/ ?
Why?
Long sweet history based on great /maybe near to 50% of the profit/ investements in sponsoring top players /direct marketing/ and /what is more important/ investments in sponsoring clubs with younger players. Most of these younger players will not reach to pro and top, but almost all of them will use BTY as long as they play, just because they have learned to play with it and they are familiar with it.

I will quote a very popular BTY pro and bloger - Once I had to play on a tournement, but my T05 were so exhausted, that I desparately needed to change them. So I asked a fellow which would be the best substitute rubber to T05 and he gave me some advice. So I changed my old T05 and I lost the competition with a great disappointment. So I came to a conclusion - stick to your T05, it doesn't have a substitute.

Do you believe him?
Isn't it pathetic?
 
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if that rubbers name is Tenergy05, you use that rubber, regardless of what brand's sponsoring you

Unless that brand is Tibhar, in which case you´ll have a problem, as they actively demand their players to use Tibhar rubbers. Other companies allowed for loopholes in their contracts, such as "only forehand rubber may be non-sponsor-material", but more and more you see contracted players use what´s given them.
The best known major exception is Ovtcharov, openly using tenergy.
 
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