Against spin vs with spin.

TTFrenzy said:

well my criteria are not only about the effort . just because a ball is considered among some "easy" does not mean that a stroke fits everyone or that there is a general rule about it. many players with good feeling find it much easier to brush loop an underspin ball which is going with the spin than countering a no spin ball or a topspin ball. Its all a matter of perspective and situation that's all im saying.

So basically just because physics and math say "going with the spin is harder" (which from a science POV is true) does not mean that it is so cause science does not take into consideration the human factor. talent and personal preference, if everybody played the same way then the game would be extremely boring and unwatchable

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Again, we are talking about the same ball. For the same level of spin, find anyone who considers looping a topspin ball harder than chopping a topspin ball or pushing a backspin ball harder than looping a backspin ball. That people prefer to loop backspin instead of topspin is about the spin they prefer to handle or practice more against and not about which stroke is easier vs the same incoming spin.

NextLevel said:

Again, we are talking about the same ball. For the same level of spin, find anyone who considers looping a topspin ball harder than chopping a topspin ball or pushing a backspin ball harder than looping a backspin ball. That people prefer to loop backspin instead of topspin is about the spin they prefer to handle or practice more against and not about which stroke is easier vs the same incoming spin.

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you are talking about a specific ball with specific spin whereas im talking about a more hollistic approach to the game. for me its not even an issue which is harder or which is not. it is about effectiveness because it all boils down to it

besides, pushing is by default much easier than looping so we cannot compare . just analyzing about a specific ball with specific spin is insignificant if you dont take all the factors into consideration, yeah with this criteria its easier, but what im saying is it doesnt mean absolutely anything. So actually the question should be "what do I have to do to be more effective in my game against or with the spin" . Just some food for thought from me towards the thread starter, cheers

TTFrenzy said:

you are talking about a specific ball with specific spin whereas im talking about a more hollistic approach to the game. for me its not even an issue which is harder or which is not. it is about effectiveness because it all boils down to it

besides, pushing is by default much easier than looping so we cannot compare . just analyzing about a specific ball with specific spin is insignificant if you dont take all the factors into consideration, yeah with this criteria its easier, but what im saying is it doesnt mean absolutely anything. So actually the question should be "what do I have to do to be more effective in my game against or with the spin" . Just some food for thought from me towards the thread starter, cheers

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Understood, but you are the first person to tell me that it is easier to push a heavy topspin than to loop a heavy topspin ball.

easy explination. it is harder to maintain the direction of rotation. when you do counterspin you actually turn the direction or rotation what is easier because the rubber is doing that for you anyway

TT_Rogue said:

easy explination. it is harder to maintain the direction of rotation. when you do counterspin you actually turn the direction or rotation what is easier because the rubber is doing that for you anyway

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Obviously, but our friend TTFRenzy disagrees and says it depends on the situation and overall ball quality you are looking for. Maybe the problem is thinking about looping in general - not all topspins are loops.

what i wrote is a generell fact introduced by physics and biodynamics, everything else matthers on the individuum

Actually im not disagreeing. Im just setting a different question, i never said that from an effort POV anything different than what you said. You can read my post again i actually agree.

NextLevel said:

Understood, but you are the first person to tell me that it is easier to push a heavy topspin than to loop a heavy topspin ball.

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Nop i didnt say that. I said what I said

So let's complicate this a little bit more. I just started looping under spin with side spin (so coming on the out side of the ball to execute the topspin looping action) it feels like it's a bit easier for me to be consistent when executing the shot like. that but it's new for me to to try to purposefully try that with all that to all back spin loops, and what ever success that I've had could be due to chance or a few really good days. So I was wondering if any other player found looping backspin easier when doing it with side spin? My thoughts are that since I'm not hitting the Point on the ball with the greatest amount of spin that there is less spin to deal with and it may be a bit closer to my normal stroke. Is this in anyway right? And I know that will change when you start talking about back and side spin etc but for the sake of this lets just keep it as a relatively straight back spin ball.
Good conversation btw.


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gmiller2233 said:

So let's complicate this a little bit more. I just started looping under spin with side spin (so coming on the out side of the ball to execute the topspin looping action) it feels like it's a bit easier for me to be consistent when executing the shot like. that but it's new for me to to try to purposefully try that with all that to all back spin loops, and what ever success that I've had could be due to chance or a few really good days. So I was wondering if any other player found looping backspin easier when doing it with side spin? My thoughts are that since I'm not hitting the Point on the ball with the greatest amount of spin that there is less spin to deal with and it may be a bit closer to my normal stroke. Is this in anyway right? And I know that will change when you start talking about back and side spin etc but for the sake of this lets just keep it as a relatively straight back spin ball.
Good conversation btw.


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It's only complicated if you want to sound complicated - it's actually pretty easy. It's how I loop almost everything.

If you don't loop heavy underspin and topspin that way, you won't get better as a player. That you are coming round the side of the ball doesn't mean that your loop has to be primarily sidespin. It could still be primarily topspin, just that your first contact is not on the major spin equator but closer to the axis. This allows you to impart your own spin more easily without the ball jumping off your racket.

ehhh... not really guys.

inverted rubbers tend to invert spin. actually they kill most of it and invert the rest. place a bat flat on the other side of the table and hit it with a back spin serve: the ball will jump back towards the net at first but then it will start rolling away from the net because the spin got inverted once the ball hit the rubber.

when you counter loop (top spin to top spin) you are indeed going against the spin from a viewers perspective but because you are using an inverted rubber the end result is more like you are going with the spin.

when you loop a backspin ball you have to brush the ball QUICKLY and focus a lot of the force into BRUSHING or else you won't be able to produce top spin.

the reason looping back spin balls seems to create shots with most spin is because you trade the speed for spin and put most of your effort into spinning the ball.

this is why i coach my students not to try to brush when they counter loop away from the table, just close the bat angle slightly and go horizontally through the ball, the ball will curve over the net due to the spin that was already there and got inverted when the ball hit the rubber.

the only reason most people find it easier to loop back spin balls is because those are usually slow and easier to time.

chooping top spun balls is from an outside viewer perspective also going with the spin, but to the player chopping it is actually going against the spin that gets inverted once the ball hits his inverted rubber. this is why if you don't use your wrist to achieve a very high bat speed you can only hope to produce a floater or a light back spin ball.

tl dr: it actually takes more effort to go "with the spin" because inverted rubbers invert the spin upon contact. so going "against the spin" is where you actually use the spin that was already on the ball.

izra said:

tl dr: it actually takes more effort to go "with the spin" because inverted rubbers invert the spin upon contact. so going "against the spin" is where you actually use the spin that was already on the ball.

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So you are trying to say that when you loop backspin, you are going to have to kill the existing spin on the ball and then use your stroke speed to create topspin?

EDIT: I read what you said more carefully and I agree with you.

well you never actually stop the ball from spinning when looping backspin, but the spin on the ball certainly isn't helping you, it's working against you.

I can't offer an empiric view on this because that is what telemetry equipment is for, but my "impression" of looping backspin is that there must be great care in not letting the spin overwhelm your own.

For topspin, I feel as if I can use the topspin on the incoming ball to generate pace and my own spin easier. My counterloop is excellent for my level, for some context.

So what izra is saying is completely sound in a practical sense. At least, I think of spin that way.

izra said:

well you never actually stop the ball from spinning when looping backspin, but the spin on the ball certainly isn't helping you, it's working against you.

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Only if you try to purely overpower it in my experience. Some of it can be mitigated with the intelligent use of racket angles and the result is to get a ball with a higher level of spin that one would get when looping a topspin ball, partly because of the rotational component of the stroke but partly because you are continuing the spin. I used to be pretty good at flat hitting backspin and no one ever told me that I was producing backspin balls by doing so.

Let us also remember that looping an inverted chopped ball and a pips chopped ball is different.

Pips don't just keep adding spin forever: otherwise Europeans would never win against choppers with their nonstop looping, but pips directly increase the amount of backspin that is on the ball when it comes to the attacker after a chop against loop, which then forces the attacker to add more topspin to prevent the chopper's attack, and you get the point.

At some point, you will hit a wall and unless you apply more force to the ball, which is practically impossible if you're looping at full power, and you must push with inverted to produce a backspin ball and to mitigate most of the spin.

So in a way, while you are physically "gaining spin" from the chopper, you are also going against it, doing your best to not slide the ball into the net. That is why after some point, it's desirable to push a chop and start over again.

Of course, the level of the chopper and attacked play a huge part in how this actually plays out. At lower levels, the attacker is more likely to make a mistake and lose outright while the chopper is more likely to not keep producing heavy spin and produce a float instead.

Where is Pnachtwey when you need him for a discussion like this?

"When the tangential speed of the racket matches the rotational speed of the ball...."

I know someone is going to think am simply making fun of him because he and I butted heads a bit. But, even though I am having fun, I am not making fun of him. His information makes a lot of sense. Even though I think there may be more to it.

Vs a loop--with smooth rubber--you only need to have a good racket angle for the rubber you are using which is why you can block or counterloop. Well, a good angle, good contact and good touch. But your racket does not need any pace. Pace added to racket can be used to add pace and/or spin to the ball but is not needed.

However, when looping backspin, you have to have your racket going pretty close to as fast, or faster than the speed of the spin on the ball. I think there are also issues of how you get the ball to sink into the topsheet and sponge to some extent and then what the rebound of the sponge and rubber adds to that in velocity as you hold the ball on the blade face. But you have to have your racket going decently fast to loop backspin. You cannot just put your racket out at an angle for a topspin shot and expect the ball to land on the table. But that is something you can do when you push heavy backspin. And with heavy topspin if you tried that method of pushing you would certainly pop the ball up.




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Hmm, great thread.

I think I shall be the only one here that say following ball spin (chop the loop, loop the chop) is way easier than countering it.

For me,

Chopping looped ball always feel safer than counter pushing chopped ball; less prone to net ball.

Vise versa,

Looping chopped ball is easier than counter looping looped ball; less prone to fly ball.

Off course,

When I find opponent that can truly out spin me, I am screwed. His loop make my chop land in next table, counter looping feed Him yummy ball to smash for.



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Archosaurus said:

Let us also remember that looping an inverted chopped ball and a pips chopped ball is different.

Pips don't just keep adding spin forever: otherwise Europeans would never win against choppers with their nonstop looping, but pips directly increase the amount of backspin that is on the ball when it comes to the attacker after a chop against loop, which then forces the attacker to add more topspin to prevent the chopper's attack, and you get the point.

At some point, you will hit a wall and unless you apply more force to the ball, which is practically impossible if you're looping at full power, and you must push with inverted to produce a backspin ball and to mitigate most of the spin.

So in a way, while you are physically "gaining spin" from the chopper, you are also going against it, doing your best to not slide the ball into the net. That is why after some point, it's desirable to push a chop and start over again.

Of course, the level of the chopper and attacked play a huge part in how this actually plays out. At lower levels, the attacker is more likely to make a mistake and lose outright while the chopper is more likely to not keep producing heavy spin and produce a float instead.

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This only applies if you are applying heavier and heavier amounts of topspin to the ball. You reach a backspin equilibrum of sorts if you know your loop. Sometimes, looping is not about generating heavy topspin, it's just about putting topspin on the ball. Opening your paddle makes it easier to counter the amount of backspin on the ball.

The point here is that the overpower backspin idea is not the whole story. There is a tangential speed needed to do so, but once that threshold is reached, you are continuing the spin.