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    1. Top | #1
      Archosaurus is offline
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      Leaning back in modern over table loop

      Hello.

      I've noticed that just about every Chinese top player leans back when they hit backhand loops. I also do this without any formal training and I've found it to be effective in increasing pace and allowing me to make the distance larger in a whim if need be.

      The lean is not throughout the whole stroke, and it is very sudden.

      While I subconsciously understand why this is done, and I have some theories for it, it doesn't make perfect sense in terms of mechanics, to me.

      Can someone who actually knows care to explain why this is done and why it makes a loop so much better?

      EDIT: I'd also like to clarify that you're not really leaning back, but on some shots, the weight does appear to shift back.
      Last edited by Archosaurus; 02-18-2016 at 07:21 PM.

    2. Top | #2
      Ilia Minkin is offline
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      I think that it is a kind of recoil and actually not a good thing.

    3. Top | #3
      Archosaurus is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ilia Minkin View Post
      I think that it is a kind of recoil and actually not a good thing.
      Why? The movement helps to get away from the table to prepare for the next ball.

      Why is it mechanically not sound or why IS it mechanically sound? Is it only done to clear distance?

      I don't want speculation: ideally someone who consciously knows should come here and comment.

    4. Top | #4
      Shuki is offline
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      it's a bad thing to lean back on the backhand stroke. you lose power by doing so. However, If you mean you're slightly hunched over and then you straighten up a bit, that is more correct for a backhand loop.

      Think of it the same way you'd think of doing a forehand loop. Would leaning back help you with those?

    5. Top | #5
      darnner123 is offline
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      Im pretty sure everyone does that when they just started, its just a natural habit. you probably will lose speed and gain some spin but once the opponent does a fast shot its really hard to recover to return it.

    6. Top | #6
      Archosaurus is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Shuki View Post
      However, If you mean you're slightly hunched over and then you straighten up a bit, that is more correct for a backhand loop.
      This is what I mean.

      Not actually leaning back, just straightening out quite excessively.

    7. Top | #7
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Here. Have a look at the backhand technique section. You want your weight moving forward on the shot and your spin goes from rounded to straighter but still forward:

      http://en.butterflymag.com/2014/03/s...o-his-success/

      So the weight stays in the balls of the feet.
      Spin Everything.

    8. Top | #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus View Post
      Not actually leaning back, just straightening out quite excessively.
      Do you think you could link to a video that shows the thing you're trying to describe?

      Maybe we could analyse the video and try and work out why it might be happening.

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      UpSideDownCarl (02-19-2016)

    10. Top | #9
      Archosaurus is offline
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      1 minute 15 sec.

      I couldn't find a very extreme example, but I did find this from Ma Long's instructional. Notice the upwards movement, very slight leaning back and pushing backwards with the legs on contact. Imagine this but exaggerated on a stronger shot in a match situation.

    11. Top | #10
      Shuki is offline
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      Watch Fan zhendong's backhand warming up at around 30 seconds. He goes from hunched to slightly upwards every time. I'm assuming this is what he's talking about. But backwards is definitely bad.

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      UpSideDownCarl (02-19-2016)

    13. Top | #11
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Leaning back in modern over table loop

      Yep, the video of Ma Long and the video of FZD both show a rounded starting position and they both stay rounded and with their weight forwards towards where the ball is going while the rise a little and their spin moves from moderately flexed (rounded) to a slight bit less rounded. But their weight and effort is transferring forward into the ball.

      If they came up more and it ended up causing them to have their center of gravity move back behind their heels, that would be poor technique, would result in a week shot and make their recovery time pretty slow.

      Sometimes a player will exaggerated the lifting up and the spinal extension too much, particularly on a heavy backspin ball with a motion that is more up than it should be and less forward than is optimal. But that is not really what you want. Ideally the momentum of your body goes forward with your stroke.

      Both videos show good form for a backhand.

      But a video of you doing what you are referring to would probably help.


      Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 02-19-2016 at 05:08 PM.

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      Ilia Minkin (02-19-2016)

    15. Top | #12
      Inkognito is offline
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      You sure it's not the recovery from a in over the table loop you are describing? Important to come out and don't get stuck in over the table when the next ball will be long and deep (almost 100%).
      Private coach/trainer for more then 5 years with highest level player from national junior/senior teams. Before that I was a club trainer for almost 10 years. I really enjoy helping players to evolve and understand the game and they don't need to be pros for me to find it interesting!

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    16. Top | #13
      Shuki is offline
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      I have a problem where if a ball is coming more quickly to my backhand I overly straighten and actually lean backwards a bit. It's more a flinch than anything.

    17. Top | #14
      kriller is offline
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      As someone who have played a lot of football, it's basically the same principle when taking a free kick or shot on goal. Here you will also focus on not leaning backwards as you most of the time will have an uncontrollable shot, that 9/10 times won't go where you wanted it.

    18. Top | #15
      Archosaurus is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by kriller View Post
      As someone who have played a lot of football, it's basically the same principle when taking a free kick or shot on goal. Here you will also focus on not leaning backwards as you most of the time will have an uncontrollable shot, that 9/10 times won't go where you wanted it.
      What IS the principle for taking a free kick or shot on goal?

      Perhaps I'd need to post more video of this. It doesn't really happen in warmup or instructional situations. More so what Inkognito is describing: the top players and I only do it close to table, and I do it to avoid a backhand loop into my groin when I'm not prepared.

      I believe the only cause of this, the jump backwards when playing an over table loop in a match, is to get away from the table. What I don't know is how much it hurts the ball delivery: if at all.

    19. Top | #16
      Shuki is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus View Post
      What IS the principle for taking a free kick or shot on goal?

      Perhaps I'd need to post more video of this. It doesn't really happen in warmup or instructional situations. More so what Inkognito is describing: the top players and I only do it close to table, and I do it to avoid a backhand loop into my groin when I'm not prepared.

      I believe the only cause of this, the jump backwards when playing an over table loop in a match, is to get away from the table. What I don't know is how much it hurts the ball delivery: if at all.
      if you're leaning back enough for you to notice it, it's not a good thing. you want to be leaning forward otherwise you lose power and control. the pro's moreso go up with it as they push up with their legs. But they always stay leaned forward on the shot.

    20. Top | #17
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus View Post
      Perhaps I'd need to post more video of this. It doesn't really happen in warmup or instructional situations.
      You would probably be better served showing video of you doing it.

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    22. Top | #18
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      At 4:49 point.

    23. Top | #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus View Post
      Hello.

      I've noticed that just about every Chinese top player leans back when they hit backhand loops. I also do this without any formal training and I've found it to be effective in increasing pace and allowing me to make the distance larger in a whim if need be.

      The lean is not throughout the whole stroke, and it is very sudden.

      While I subconsciously understand why this is done, and I have some theories for it, it doesn't make perfect sense in terms of mechanics, to me.

      Can someone who actually knows care to explain why this is done and why it makes a loop so much better?

      EDIT: I'd also like to clarify that you're not really leaning back, but on some shots, the weight does appear to shift back.
      It's a very interesting point you brought up here. This type of footwork only applies for on table opening loop, especially for back spin balls, where you have your right foot under the table and your left foot behind. The push back of the right foot at the moment of contact is an indication that you already put all body weight behind your swing, not just only use your arm and wrist. The key to this is to tighten your abs for the execution. Another useful purpose of this recoil is to get you back to ready position for the 3rd ball onwards.

      European players normally don't do this, simply because the already have strong arms and wrists. The Chinese do this more often because after the serves, they're often 75-90cm away from the table ready for the next shot. If the return ball is long, they don't have to worry about the strokes. But if it's short, it's always easier to step forward with your right foot for back hand opening, and this push back makes sure they'll be ready for the next shot. Just my 2 cents, and it worked for me.

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    25. Top | #20
      Archosaurus is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Nikoli View Post
      It's a very interesting point you brought up here. This type of footwork only applies for on table opening loop, especially for back spin balls, where you have your right foot under the table and your left foot behind. The push back of the right foot at the moment of contact is an indication that you already put all body weight behind your swing, not just only use your arm and wrist. The key to this is to tighten your abs for the execution. Another useful purpose of this recoil is to get you back to ready position for the 3rd ball onwards.

      European players normally don't do this, simply because the already have strong arms and wrists. The Chinese do this more often because after the serves, they're often 75-90cm away from the table ready for the next shot. If the return ball is long, they don't have to worry about the strokes. But if it's short, it's always easier to step forward with your right foot for back hand opening, and this push back makes sure they'll be ready for the next shot. Just my 2 cents, and it worked for me.
      It seems to be so.

      I am about 64kg and slightly under 170cm, and even if I'm strong for my size, the people I play against here commonly out-power me. I am faster, though.

      With this technique, I can attack strong whenever I want and not get in a pinch. Due to my small size, I've had to learn to use my body well in backhand loops and I've found it to actually assist in it, instead of taking away power. Consistency is exactly the same, too, if not more consistent due to how often I do this.

      I can understand why European coaches would advise to never do this.

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