Leaning back in modern over table loop

I think that it is a kind of recoil and actually not a good thing.

Originally Posted by Ilia Minkin

I think that it is a kind of recoil and actually not a good thing.

Why? The movement helps to get away from the table to prepare for the next ball.

Why is it mechanically not sound or why IS it mechanically sound? Is it only done to clear distance?

I don't want speculation: ideally someone who consciously knows should come here and comment.

it's a bad thing to lean back on the backhand stroke. you lose power by doing so. However, If you mean you're slightly hunched over and then you straighten up a bit, that is more correct for a backhand loop.

Think of it the same way you'd think of doing a forehand loop. Would leaning back help you with those?

Im pretty sure everyone does that when they just started, its just a natural habit. you probably will lose speed and gain some spin but once the opponent does a fast shot its really hard to recover to return it.

Originally Posted by Shuki

However, If you mean you're slightly hunched over and then you straighten up a bit, that is more correct for a backhand loop.

This is what I mean.

Not actually leaning back, just straightening out quite excessively.

Originally Posted by Archosaurus

Not actually leaning back, just straightening out quite excessively.

Do you think you could link to a video that shows the thing you're trying to describe?

Maybe we could analyse the video and try and work out why it might be happening.

1 minute 15 sec.

I couldn't find a very extreme example, but I did find this from Ma Long's instructional. Notice the upwards movement, very slight leaning back and pushing backwards with the legs on contact. Imagine this but exaggerated on a stronger shot in a match situation.

Watch Fan zhendong's backhand warming up at around 30 seconds. He goes from hunched to slightly upwards every time. I'm assuming this is what he's talking about. But backwards is definitely bad.

I have a problem where if a ball is coming more quickly to my backhand I overly straighten and actually lean backwards a bit. It's more a flinch than anything.

As someone who have played a lot of football, it's basically the same principle when taking a free kick or shot on goal. Here you will also focus on not leaning backwards as you most of the time will have an uncontrollable shot, that 9/10 times won't go where you wanted it.

Originally Posted by kriller

As someone who have played a lot of football, it's basically the same principle when taking a free kick or shot on goal. Here you will also focus on not leaning backwards as you most of the time will have an uncontrollable shot, that 9/10 times won't go where you wanted it.

What IS the principle for taking a free kick or shot on goal?

Perhaps I'd need to post more video of this. It doesn't really happen in warmup or instructional situations. More so what Inkognito is describing: the top players and I only do it close to table, and I do it to avoid a backhand loop into my groin when I'm not prepared.

I believe the only cause of this, the jump backwards when playing an over table loop in a match, is to get away from the table. What I don't know is how much it hurts the ball delivery: if at all.

Originally Posted by Archosaurus

What IS the principle for taking a free kick or shot on goal?

Perhaps I'd need to post more video of this. It doesn't really happen in warmup or instructional situations. More so what Inkognito is describing: the top players and I only do it close to table, and I do it to avoid a backhand loop into my groin when I'm not prepared.

I believe the only cause of this, the jump backwards when playing an over table loop in a match, is to get away from the table. What I don't know is how much it hurts the ball delivery: if at all.

if you're leaning back enough for you to notice it, it's not a good thing. you want to be leaning forward otherwise you lose power and control. the pro's moreso go up with it as they push up with their legs. But they always stay leaned forward on the shot.

At 4:49 point.

Originally Posted by Archosaurus

Hello.

I've noticed that just about every Chinese top player leans back when they hit backhand loops. I also do this without any formal training and I've found it to be effective in increasing pace and allowing me to make the distance larger in a whim if need be.

The lean is not throughout the whole stroke, and it is very sudden.

While I subconsciously understand why this is done, and I have some theories for it, it doesn't make perfect sense in terms of mechanics, to me.

Can someone who actually knows care to explain why this is done and why it makes a loop so much better?

EDIT: I'd also like to clarify that you're not really leaning back, but on some shots, the weight does appear to shift back.

It's a very interesting point you brought up here. This type of footwork only applies for on table opening loop, especially for back spin balls, where you have your right foot under the table and your left foot behind. The push back of the right foot at the moment of contact is an indication that you already put all body weight behind your swing, not just only use your arm and wrist. The key to this is to tighten your abs for the execution. Another useful purpose of this recoil is to get you back to ready position for the 3rd ball onwards.

European players normally don't do this, simply because the already have strong arms and wrists. The Chinese do this more often because after the serves, they're often 75-90cm away from the table ready for the next shot. If the return ball is long, they don't have to worry about the strokes. But if it's short, it's always easier to step forward with your right foot for back hand opening, and this push back makes sure they'll be ready for the next shot. Just my 2 cents, and it worked for me.

Originally Posted by Nikoli

It's a very interesting point you brought up here. This type of footwork only applies for on table opening loop, especially for back spin balls, where you have your right foot under the table and your left foot behind. The push back of the right foot at the moment of contact is an indication that you already put all body weight behind your swing, not just only use your arm and wrist. The key to this is to tighten your abs for the execution. Another useful purpose of this recoil is to get you back to ready position for the 3rd ball onwards.

European players normally don't do this, simply because the already have strong arms and wrists. The Chinese do this more often because after the serves, they're often 75-90cm away from the table ready for the next shot. If the return ball is long, they don't have to worry about the strokes. But if it's short, it's always easier to step forward with your right foot for back hand opening, and this push back makes sure they'll be ready for the next shot. Just my 2 cents, and it worked for me.

It seems to be so.

I am about 64kg and slightly under 170cm, and even if I'm strong for my size, the people I play against here commonly out-power me. I am faster, though.

With this technique, I can attack strong whenever I want and not get in a pinch. Due to my small size, I've had to learn to use my body well in backhand loops and I've found it to actually assist in it, instead of taking away power. Consistency is exactly the same, too, if not more consistent due to how often I do this.

I can understand why European coaches would advise to never do this.