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    1. Top | #21
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus View Post
      It seems to be so.

      I am about 64kg and slightly under 170cm, and even if I'm strong for my size, the people I play against here commonly out-power me. I am faster, though.

      With this technique, I can attack strong whenever I want and not get in a pinch. Due to my small size, I've had to learn to use my body well in backhand loops and I've found it to actually assist in it, instead of taking away power. Consistency is exactly the same, too, if not more consistent due to how often I do this.

      I can understand why European coaches would advise to never do this.
      Without the video of you, all statements like this are, they are really just words. The example showed in SquareBall's video is an accident from pressure. Chen Meng is over the table ready for a short ball to the middle and she gets a long push to her backhand side near the end line. And what she does is actually poor technique that she got away with. And the shot it produced is not a strong shot. It is high and slow. But it was misjudged. So she got lucky there.

      It is easy to misjudge your own level if you don't see video of yourself. It is easy to talk about something and think you are right. But video footage gives an accurate representation. It will show how good the technique you are talking about is or not. If you wanted to help your technique improve, video footage can really help you see things you need to work on. The rest is just talk.

      No sane coach from anywhere would train a player to lean back on any shot. It happens, but that is not on purpose. I have had a coach who is from China who is 2500+ and lives in NYC tell me that was bad technique. And yes, I used to do that before my BH looping technique got stronger. It was a hard habit to break. But when my technique got better, it went away. At least for the most part. I can't remember the last time that happened.
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    2. Top | #22
      Archosaurus is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Without the video of you, all statements like this are, they are really just words. The example showed in SquareBall's video is an accident from pressure. Chen Meng is over the table ready for a short ball to the middle and she gets a long push to her backhand side near the end line. And what she does is actually poor technique that she got away with. And the shot it produced is not a strong shot. It is high and slow. But it was misjudged. So she got lucky there.

      It is easy to misjudge your own level if you don't see video of yourself. It is easy to talk about something and think you are right. But video footage gives an accurate representation. It will show how good the technique you are talking about is or not. If you wanted to help your technique improve, video footage can really help you see things you need to work on. The rest is just talk.

      No sane coach from anywhere would train a player to lean back on any shot. It happens, but that is not on purpose. I have had a coach who is from China who is 2500+ and lives in NYC tell me that was bad technique. And yes, I used to do that before my BH looping technique got stronger. It was a hard habit to break. But when my technique got better, it went away. At least for the most part. I can't remember the last time that happened.
      I'm not aiming to improve my technique on this. I am just asking why it is done.

      I'd also like to add that what I mean is mostly straightening upwards, not back, while pushing back with the leg. Of course, unless you're Kreanga or something, you won't have perfect backhand loop form on every single shot, and you will get caught off guard. Even caught off guard, the attack in the video was strong enough to give her the initiative to win the point. It is a better alternative than giving an even weaker return or losing the point outright.

      Perhaps what I'm asking is if keeping your back bent and not straightening out at all is the ideal in every situation. Logic would state so, but even Ma Long has to straighten his body out in forehand counterloops, and he has possibly the best forehand in the history of the sport. Surely Ma Long's form is not rubbish, if you understand what I mean.

      EDIT: I was watching Kreanga a bit, because I think we can all agree that his backhand is okay and because I am part Greek and biased, and I noticed that he DOES move into the ball while straightening out.

      I understand that if you move away from the ball, and your torso doesn't un-coil towards your follow through direction ie: to the side and up, then you're not moving into the ball. I am talking about doing that. I am NOT talking about hip thrusting and moving your torso away from the ball.

      So essentially, this movement in it's ideal condition, is just a reverse of the forehand loop torso movement.
      Last edited by Archosaurus; 02-20-2016 at 01:50 PM.

    3. Top | #23
      ttmonster is offline
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      Just a small correction, Ma Long does not have the best forehand in the history of the sport , it was Wang Liqin in the Chinese Forehand category and Waldner in the European Forehand category.

    4. Top | #24
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      I'd have to say Long's forehand is more practical and has a higher scoring potential than Liqin's, but in terms of sheer power and spin, Liqin's is perhaps better due to the fact that he played without the rubber of today and with a wooden bat, although he did have speed glue and a smaller ball.

      You could start a whole thread on who had it tougher in terms of competition, Liqin in his time or Long now, but that's a story for another day. They're both great and absolutely exceptional.


      I do have to agree that Waldner set the golden standard for the "classic topspin" and it's good because it can be played by people who are over 30, too.


      A better conversation for this thread would be Chinese vs European backhand looping style. There has been arguments that this modern Chinese style of backhand looping is only a thing because the Chinese can't pull off the shots like the Europeans can and thus have to use the body more and whatnot, but I don't know...

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    6. Top | #25
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Here you go: ask Liu Gouliang if what you are talking about is good technique:



      You don't need to hear anything to understand what LGL is saying to ML.


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    8. Top | #26
      Archosaurus is offline
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      I think we both agree that you need to hit into the ball and not along it, and that's what LGL is saying, but it's not what I'm talking about. I am talking about a stroke that is played as an opener, while moving backwards. There's still movement into the ball at contact, but movement away on follow through.

      If this is wrong, how exactly do you move away without compromising the stroke?



      Fan Zhendong's opening loop @ 40sec is more akin to what I'm talking about.

    9. Top | #27
      ttmonster is offline
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      Of course, I don't want to hijack this thread, but lets agree to disagree .
      I don't think there is a "Chinese" and "European" backhand looping style, if that was the case the Chinese would not be playing with European rubbers :P , thats not the argument, I am just kidding. I will explain what I am saying .

      Close to the table there are two kinds of backhand , the modern style where the ball is taking off the bounce, spun with the rubber and wrist , check Zhang Jike , even Dima/Samsonov when they are close to the table and all the girls .

      The older style is the Jorg Rosskopf style where the form is around the elbow , the elbow is farther away from the body and its a bigger swing , the intention is that the ball will not come back :P , more like a loop kill. This was required when the rubber/blade technology was not as good as it is now.

      Then there is the away from the table backhand , here I don't think there are different styles. The difference you notice in players is because for players who use the modern backhand close to the table more often , this is becomes an extension of that stroke, and , the ball is taken on the top of the bounce and infront of the body like Fan Zhendong does compared to Samsonov who takes a more natural swing at it.

      Now , Kreanga is a special player , his backhand is his forehand and its so natural that he does not care about which technique he is using, he plays a different shot every time, varying spin, speed and placement on his wish. Coaches I have had the good fortune to get coaching from always use the Kreanga technique as an exception to every rule in the book and explicitly tell the students to not learn from it.


      Coming back to your observation, its just a normal follow through becasue of the tension release in the abdomen muscles.
      It happens at times , but I would not advise anything that moves the head in a vertical plane. The golden rule of table tennis being the eyes would should remain at the same level, its more difficult to bend down to ready position once you have straightened your spine during a rally.
      Last edited by ttmonster; 02-20-2016 at 06:23 PM.

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    11. Top | #28
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      Leaning back in modern over table loop

      Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus View Post
      I think we both agree that you need to hit into the ball and not along it, and that's what LGL is saying, but it's not what I'm talking about. I am qobJQ[/video]
      Clearly I gave you too much credit. There was a longer version of this where it was obvious that LGL was YELLING at ML, yes, reaming him out, and telling him "rotate, STOP COMING UP AND ROTATE!"

      Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster View Post
      Of course, I don't want to hijack this thread, but lets agree to disagree
      LOL: how can you be the one hijacking the thread when the OP brought up the subject and hijacked his own thread. Pure LULZ.

      BTW: good post ttmonster!

      I'll add to it. China sent Kong Linghui to Sweden to learn the "European" shakehand style including BH. How is it different? Wang Liqin had won 3 WTTC Singles titles by the time he was ML's age and he was playing with the 40mm celluloid ball. What smaller ball. ML has been playing with the 40+ for the same amount of time as everyone. But most of his career was played with the same size ball that Wang Liqin played most of his career with. Did I miss something. And if you think the boost the CNT is using is much different than the speed glue WLQ used, not so much.

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      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 02-20-2016 at 06:55 PM.

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    13. Top | #29
      Tinykin is offline
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      The lean back shot on the BH usuall occurs with players who are trying to heavily topspin a ball out of their body while thir feet position is roughly flat across. Nothing wrong with the technique.
      That is, the incoming ball is very deep backspin or is topspin that has dropped low. The player is trying to really hack the ball for maximum spin. The technique is perfect in this situation.
      Posters here must stop getting into the mantra that such and such is technique is bad because some WR top5 CNT player does it another way.
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    14. Top | #30
      Tinykin is offline
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      Now that I think about it, the same thing occurs on the FH especially against a player who has pushed fast and deep into the body.

    15. Top | #31
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      Tinykin's point is good: the technique is only really performed against relatively heavy, slow spins, usually as an opener.

      We've already established that when playing a power shot, you want to rotate. When playing a spin shot, don't you want to brush? I do not understand where the heresy comes from.

    16. Top | #32
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      Part of the problem is that we are overthinking the small details. You can fault everyone if you look at the small details, even Ma Long. What usually happens is that technical improvement is at the end of an experimental process with basic fundamentals at the start and compromises at the finish to integrate into a whole. Making sense of it from a technical standpoint can sometimes be a dead end. But understanding how it evolved always answers the question. Unfortunately, none of us are there when it evolves.

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    18. Top | #33
      Archosaurus is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      Part of the problem is that we are overthinking the small details. You can fault everyone if you look at the small details, even Ma Long. What usually happens is that technical improvement is at the end of an experimental process with basic fundamentals at the start and compromises at the finish to integrate into a whole. Making sense of it from a technical standpoint can sometimes be a dead end. But understanding how it evolved always answers the question. Unfortunately, none of us are there when it evolves.
      I'm not entirely sure if I understood you correctly, but is your point that we must look at the "big picture" of a technique?

      Ie: "why is this done", not "what does this do"?

    19. Top | #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus View Post
      I'm not entirely sure if I understood you correctly, but is your point that we must look at the "big picture" of a technique?

      Ie: "why is this done", not "what does this do"?
      Yes, from a historical standpoint, not always from a functional or technical standpoint. Some things about technique are quirks. Some things are unique gifts. Some things are just pure accidents. In the end, just focus on the essentials. Let a high level coach fix your accidents.
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    21. Top | #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post

      BTW: good post ttmonster!
      Thanks Carl !

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    23. Top | #36
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      A big thumbs up !
      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      Yes, from a historical standpoint, not always from a functional or technical standpoint. Some things about technique are quirks. Some things are unique gifts. Some things are just pure accidents. In the end, just focus on the essentials. Let a high level coach fix your accidents.

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    25. Top | #37
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      With due respect, as I re-read this thread it seems that you have already made up your mind but you are still asking for opinion.

      Let me re-iterate , the slight unbending of the spine is a function of abdomen muscle contraction and the reset hop, but there are no situations where coaches advise you to fall back while hitting any form of backhand or forehand , its not a technique , period . You can check with any coach , at any level for any shot , even for blocking there is a supposed to be slight follow through forward, the same applies to push, chop , loop, powerloop, counterloop and flip on either side.

      What you see in the videos are quirks or last minute adjustments where the ball is deeper than expected.

      Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus View Post
      Tinykin's point is good: the technique is only really performed against relatively heavy, slow spins, usually as an opener.

      We've already established that when playing a power shot, you want to rotate. When playing a spin shot, don't you want to brush? I do not understand where the heresy comes from.

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    27. Top | #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster View Post
      I don't think there is a "Chinese" and "European" backhand looping style.
      The european bh loop ends with an extended follow through while the chinese bh loop ends more forward instead of to your right. But yes, there are european players that end forward instead of to the right, while there are also some chinese that use a big swing.

      But this is what they're talking about when they reference the two.

      Now to OP, "Fan Zhendong's opening loop @ 40sec is more akin to what I'm talking about."

      At this point he doesn't lean back at all, he makes good contact and then after the contact he jumps backwards and still stays leaned forward. If you're saying you don't lean back at all now, then fantastic, you've improved from where you started in this thread and I'm happy for you





      If you're going to not post a video of yourself, and also discredit information given to you and still ask for opinions until you get the response you want, why make the thread in the first place?

      If this is what you want, yes, your backhand is superior to ours and is that of a pro. You have a naturally talented backhand that we could only dream of having. And here I was fighting that natural lean back that I had. If only I knew that it was what was actually correct, then I wouldn't have been fighting it.
      Last edited by Shuki; 02-21-2016 at 05:11 AM.

    28. Top | #39
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      Shuki, that is kind of what I described in the modern and the classical backhand looping style, Jorg Rosskopf vs Zhang Jike . I haven't seen the ZJK backhand in the men's sport till the advent of modern ESN / Tenergy rubbers , have you ?
      Quote Originally Posted by Shuki View Post
      The european bh loop ends with an extended follow through while the chinese bh loop ends more forward instead of to your right. But yes, there are european players that end forward instead of to the right, while there are also some chinese that use a big swing.

      But this is what they're talking about when they reference the two.

    29. Top | #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster View Post
      Shuki, that is kind of what I described in the modern and the classical backhand looping style, Jorg Rosskopf vs Zhang Jike . I haven't seen the ZJK backhand in the men's sport till the advent of modern ESN / Tenergy rubbers , have you ?
      Oh my bad, I misinterpreted a bit of your post, thank's for clarifying! Didn't realize we agreed on this. I noticed more of a change in the style among everyone with the larger ball than the change in ESN rubbers. My coach tells me one of the biggest reasons to end with the shorter stroke is because where you end should be your ready position, and your ending point for your forehand (give or take a few inches).

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