US Rating VS Rest of World

NDH · Mar 13, 2016

Hey guys,

I know it's been touched on briefly in other threads, but I thought I'd see if we could bring all the info together for everyone to see in one place.

How do you players in the USA get your rating? From what I've seen on the forum, you have no regular league? Is it purely tournaments (and how often are these).

I assume the rating then comes once you've played a certain number of tournaments, and it changes purely based on your results (and the rating of the opponent?)

It would also be good to see how rankings work in other countries.

In the UK, the main ranking system comes from the "British League" results and County matches - However, to complicate matters, not everyone plays in the British League (and only the top top players play in County matches). We also have tournaments at weekends across the country, but again, the participation in these vary dramatically.

Most table tennis is played in local leagues - Within one of our "Counties" (think a very small version of one of the "states" in USA), we'll have multiple "leagues" - Typically, each big town will have it's own League with a number of divisions (Typically between 3 and 8 divisions depending on the size of the town).

A lot of players play in multiple Leagues within the County (geographically, it's not that big, so you'll typically have 3/4 different leagues (in different towns), all within a 45 minute drive.

We have rankings in each League, which are based on the results from the previous 12/24 months - But we have no way of comparing one person in one League, to another in a completely different part of them country.

Anyway, would be great to see how it works elsewhere in the world (as well as the actual set up in the USA).

Cheers

NextLevel · Mar 13, 2016

Ratings are earned in tournaments based on a n ELO type system. There are individual leagues established in many clubs, but team leagues are being set up on a small but hopefully growing scale.

necax007 · Mar 13, 2016

NextLevel said:
Ratings are earned in tournaments based on a n ELO type system. There are individual leagues established in many clubs, but team leagues are being set up on a small but hopefully growing scale.

NextLevel, don't you guys have a national federation or something like that to regulate the rankings?

Old School · Mar 13, 2016

In Sweden it's simple, all players are under the national system. League play are between Pro (Pingisligan), Super 1 then national 1,2,3. After that Div 4-7 are played locally. So if you play div. 4 Stockholm for example and win the group and win the play-offs you go up to national 3. Here is the site that track the rank for all leagues and players http://www.profixio.com/fx/ranking_sbtf/ranking_sbtf_list.php it updates every month.

Tinykin · Mar 13, 2016

The big difference between US TT and European TT is not so much the rating system but that in USA there's virtually no team competition while in Europe it's almost all team competition.
So Americans will go OCD over their rating, while in Europe it's all about your performance for the team. Rating is just a side show. Ranking is more important.
Not that there's anything wrong with the US system. But their culture (very invidualistic), geography, work schedule, transport system all conspire against non-pro sport in general.

necax007 · Mar 13, 2016

Old School said:
In Sweden it's simple, all players are under the national system. League play are between Pro (Pingisligan), Super 1 then national 1,2,3. After that Div 4-7 are played locally. So if you play div. 4 Stockholm for example and win the group and win the play-offs you go up to national 3. Here is the site that track the rank for all leagues and players http://www.profixio.com/fx/ranking_sbtf/ranking_sbtf_list.php it updates every month.

In Portugal is something close to that. There are the national championships with a few divisions. then there are associations in the major cities with regional divisions. And there are "recreational" competition with 3 divisions.

NextLevel · Mar 13, 2016

Tinykin said:
The big difference between US TT and European TT is not so much the rating system but that in USA there's virtually no team competition while in Europe it's almost all team competition.
So Americans will go OCD over their rating, while in Europe it's all about your performance for the team. Rating is just a side show. Ranking is more important.
Not that there's anything wrong with the US system. But their culture (very invidualistic), geography, work schedule, transport system all conspire against non-pro sport in general.

You have often written such things Tinykin and I am never sure whether your conclusion is sourced in your ideological understanding of the US or the facts.

There are lots of non-professional sorts doing very well in the US, both individual and team. TT in America just competes with too many other activities to be part of the mainstream. Moreover, the distance of the US from high level playing countries with similar cultures as well as the immigrant-dominated club culture makes it harder for the sport to be easily assimilated by mainstream Americans. And none of this even gets into the learning curve the game presents.

NextLevel · Mar 13, 2016

necax007 said:
NextLevel, don't you guys have a national federation or something like that to regulate the rankings?

The USATT does and it sanctions rated events. We don't have a focus on rankings separated from ratings. The ratings have their issues but they are pretty helpful for certain things.

necax007 · Mar 14, 2016

NextLevel said:
The USATT does and it sanctions rated events. We don't have a focus on rankings separated from ratings. The ratings have their issues but they are pretty helpful for certain things.

Ok. With the size of the U.S. and being TT a "small" sport compared to NBA or baseball i understand that there isn't a national league but why there isn't a state league? i bet NY or California have enought players for a league with multiple divisions. Isn't something in USATT plans to do that in the future?

NDH · Mar 14, 2016

necax007 said:
Ok. With the size of the U.S. and being TT a "small" sport compared to NBA or baseball i understand that there isn't a national league but why there isn't a state league? i bet NY or California have enought players for a league with multiple divisions. Isn't something in USATT plans to do that in the future?

It appears very difficult for non US folk to comprehend the sheer size of the states over there.

Where I live in England, there are probably around 50 individual locations where I could play TT within an hours drive!

Most of these locations simply put out a team in the league, and don't necessarily have "training" nights - it tends to just be league matches.

I am am surprised the US doesn't have town/city leagues though?

US guys..... Would there be enough people/teams to create a league in the towns where you play?

pgpg · Mar 14, 2016

NDH said:
It appears very difficult for non US folk to comprehend the sheer size of the states over there.

Where I live in England, there are probably around 50 individual locations where I could play TT within an hours drive!

Most of these locations simply put out a team in the league, and don't necessarily have "training" nights - it tends to just be league matches.

I am am surprised the US doesn't have town/city leagues though?

US guys..... Would there be enough people/teams to create a league in the towns where you play?

Well, we do have a league in our club, but it's not team-based (comments about individualistic nature of US populace go here

).

I'm in Boston, metro area population of ~5M, if I'm not mistaken. We're getting players from within one hour driving distance, which extends to parts of Rhode Island and New Hampshire. League was active for almost 2 years now, during that time we had 237 players participating in at least one session.

There are quite a few folks who do not bother playing in the league at all(but come to the club on a regular basis), so perhaps we do have a total pool of ~500-700 players in the area. Probably enough for a decent size 'city' league, but someone has to organize it and, to be honest, I'm reasonably happy with the level of weekly competition current club league provides. It does get crowded at times, but there are not that many other venues available and somehow it does not get into 'club vs. club' mode.

As far as why team format is not that popular (although there are efforts to get it going by USATT) - right now I only have to make a decision to show up on Tuesday night in the club. I don't need to look for the team, don't need to make commitment for entire season, and deal with others not showing up etc. So, in current form it works for me quite well. I do play in a couple of team tournaments per year, but it's almost a random draw who I end up with. It's fun and has its appeal for sure, so perhaps we just don't have critical mass.

necax007 · Mar 14, 2016

NDH said:
It appears very difficult for non US folk to comprehend the sheer size of the states over there.

Where I live in England, there are probably around 50 individual locations where I could play TT within an hours drive!

Most of these locations simply put out a team in the league, and don't necessarily have "training" nights - it tends to just be league matches.

I am am surprised the US doesn't have town/city leagues though?

US guys..... Would there be enough people/teams to create a league in the towns where you play?

Well, England and the state of New York are almost the same size. If England can have a national league (I don't know if it's english league like football or UK's league) why can't New York have a league? I know it's hard to start something like that, but it would be cool for the sport!

Der_Echte · Mar 14, 2016

Tinykin said:
So Americans will go OCD over their rating

OCD... ??? !!! ??? You really think so. I disagree, try triple-crazy dipped sideways in chocolate OCD crazy.

You really hit it on the head, well over 1/2 of the US players think the world of their rating and are very protective and/or ambitious about it.

Myself, it would be great to say "I cracked 2000" or "I am Over 2000" but I won't be that until I am there, not just on the fringe.

The official rating you get from sanctioned tourneys is a decent indicator of your playing level and is supposed to be used to classify players into kinda similar skilled groups for tourneys, think U1800 and U1600. Yet you see kids and adults, particularly older adults go goo-goo bananas over a chance to increase their rating.

If a club runs a league, which is basically a round robin of kinda similar skilled groups, AND they report the scores to the national league software database, then the player gets a league rating.

Now our USATT ratings page displays both the sanctioned tourney rating and league rating from the data base.

Some clubs, including BOTH the clubs I play league at, do NOT use the national database, but one of their own.

Ironically, I was slightly over 2000 rating in BOTH leagues I played and after Friday night and tonite, I will certainly not be 2000 rated no more. Glad someone else is enjoying the ratings points, I had my chance to enjoy after a couple great sessions. Mid 1900s seams about right given that the ones who are low 1900s are true 2000 level and the low to mid 2000 crowd in league is really mid 2100 in sanctioned tourneys.

Der_Echte · Mar 14, 2016

Tiny is also right about the distance, heck even in the DC area that has a regional league, it takes over an hour to go 2-30 miles to teh venue and that is disheartening each way.

You just gotta live in USS to get it and a USA player has to live in Europe to see what it is like.

In Korea, you got club leagues, but no number rating. They classify you by division and make you give or receive a handicap based on your Division level when you face someone from another Division. Why does a Div 2 player face a Div 4 player??? Well, if I was the only player in my Korean club rated Div 2 and there were only 2 div 3 players and dozens of Div 4 and Div 5 players, then you get it, the Div 2 and Div 3 players gotta play too and give up handicap points to make it moar even.

In tourneys over there, you play in divisions as well, you dont get ratings points, but if you make 3rd place or better, you get a certificate to hang on your club's wall of fame, a good honor. If you win the city tourney or one of the regional tourneys twice, they make you go up a division.

Der_Echte · Mar 14, 2016

NDH said:
It appears very difficult for non US folk to comprehend the sheer size of the states over there.

Where I live in England, there are probably around 50 individual locations where I could play TT within an hours drive!

That is the thing, if you flew over America and randomly fell out of the airplane, pulled your ripcord on your parachute and landed... chances are you would be 1-3 hours away from any kind of TT club... that is assuming they had a league night, which the majority of clubs do not.

EVERY time I got re-assigned to USA from being oversees, it was a 3 hour drive to a club. My last place in a remote area of Upstate New York, it was more practical to drive 2 hours into Canada and look in Ottawa for a good place.

USA is not like Europe and Asia at all... you would have to have living experience on all three continents to know for yourself, just reading about it on the internet is not enough to really get it.

Hopefully, soon enough, like in the next decade, we can get more interest in Kids already decent players to be a leader at school and convince their school to get a couple tables, every school has a place to set them up, a built-in infrastructure. Once there is a bottom up pressure, and kids get older (even while they are in the parents might look for lessons) then club demand goes up and new clubs pop up.

Right now, if you build a club, it doesn't mean enough players will come to even pay 1/2 the rent of the place.

NextLevel · Mar 14, 2016

Canada is not as individualistic as the USA but it has many of the same problems that the US has when it comes to organizing and playing TT. Anyone disagree?

I actually tried to play in a team league in the NY area. I put together a team of Philly area players and did the driving. In the end, the organizer drove me crazy enough to make me realize I couldn't keep my team in it as well as my sanity.

In the US, there are lots of people into things like indoor soccer, lacrosse, chess, rowing, pickle ball, driving at golf-ranges, miniature golf, bowling etc. and this is only in the NY area. None of these are pro sports. Why should someone play TT? And how many of these things can I do in London?

It's not like the English players got good by playing in England either. IT's one thing to be able to travel to Germany or France or Poland or Sweden from England to play leagues. Doing it from the US is easier these days, but it is still hard on people nonetheless, especially at the age required to get really good. And in the end, pro-level participation does influence amateur participation and popularity of all sports.

vvk1 · Mar 14, 2016

NextLevel said:
Canada is not as individualistic as the USA but it has many of the same problems that the US has when it comes to organizing and playing TT. Anyone disagree?

I actually tried to play in a team league in the NY area. I put together a team of Philly area players and did the driving. In the end, the organizer drove me crazy enough to make me realize I couldn't keep my team in it as well as my sanity.

In the US, there are lots of people into things like indoor soccer, lacrosse, chess, rowing, pickle ball, driving at golf-ranges, miniature golf, bowling etc. and this is only in the NY area. None of these are pro sports. Why should someone play TT? And how many of these things can I do in London?

It's not like the English players got good by playing in England either. IT's one thing to be able to travel to Germany or France or Poland or Sweden from England to play leagues. Doing it from the US is easier these days, but it is still hard on people nonetheless, especially at the age required to get really good. And in the end, pro-level participation does influence amateur participation and popularity of all sports.

Of course one can play any of these sports (and many others) at amateur level in London. NL, just type "London" and one of the sports you mentioned into Google.

What's more important is that one can play the very same sports and many more outside London as well. The smaller distances are a factor, but the fact is that many of these amateur leagues are volunteer driven, with no financial remuneration for these volunteers. They do it for the love of the game. And finding someone to umpire a match is not a problem.

As to why should anyone play TT (when other sports are available)? Well, doh, because one prefers to spin the ball more than once per game and screaming "Cho!" as opposed to running to and fro across a football field in the mud maybe kicking the ball once per game

.

Finally, Drinkhall, Pitchford, Walker did get to world class level by growing up and training in England, and are a direct result of the league/club system here. Them playing in European pro clubs leagues now means only one thing - that they're good enough to play with the best.

NextLevel · Mar 14, 2016

vvk1 said:
Of course one can play any of these sports (and many others) at amateur level in London. NL, just type "London" and one of the sports you mentioned into Google.

What's more important is that one can play the very same sports and many more outside London as well. The smaller distances are a factor, but the fact is that many of these amateur leagues are volunteer driven, with no financial remuneration for these volunteers. They do it for the love of the game. And finding someone to umpire a match is not a problem.

As to why should anyone play TT (when other sports are available)? Well, doh, because one prefers to spin the ball more than once per game and screaming "Cho!" as opposed to running to and fro across a football field in the mud maybe kicking the ball once per game .

Finally, Drinkhall, Pitchford, Walker did get to world class level by growing up and training in England, and are a direct result of the league/club system here. Them playing in European pro clubs leagues now means only one thing - that they're good enough to play with the best.

There is no financial remuneration for many of those sports in the US as well, and honestly, with the possible exception of bowling and very recently chess, the financial remuneration is higher for those sports in the UK. MY point, which I really messed up, is that those sports are largely outside the mainstream in the US, but they are available to you if you want to do them. At best, people do it to keep their passions afloat. But sports like rowing, in my experience, are far easier to access as amateurs and novices with less means in the US. In London, they are largely the preserve of clubs and are mainstream.

The issue with finding umpires is often overblown - I have not failed to find a scorekeeper or umpire for a match if I need one. The question is whether it adds value or not.

Finally, if you think those players got to the World Class level by playing in England, I have a nice piece of Burospinny to sell you for a 1 million quid. Those guys would be stuck at best in the top 300 if they didn't have regular access to higher level play in Europe at a younger age.

vvk1 · Mar 14, 2016

Well, we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one.

One final point - you guys also have access to higher level play - all those ex-Chinese players/coaches that flock to the USA, and whose strength and depth is quite evident in any tournament on USA soil they're allowed to enter.

NDH · Mar 14, 2016

kukamonga said:
I think the ideal place for playing tt in amateur level is a big city like new york.
but most of US is not like this.
the distances are too big, people are not used to public transport, the weather....
that's why so many people just end up buying a table and playing in their garage.

in europe it depends, from what I've seen the level is not that high and the amateur scene in general is not too big.
the difference is that they have table tennis in schools.
this is where the best players are created, kids that are 9 or 10 and every day after school stay for tt.

where I come from, an area with 13 million people, there is virtually no tt in schools, but the city is so big and packed with people that eventually a good tt scene was created with tournaments every weekend and around 1500 players.

I can safely say, that in the UK, that is not entirely true.

Kids might start it in school (although TT in schools is still very very small), but if they want to take it up as a hobby or something more, they go to a club.

There is normally at least 1 junior "coaching" session in every town - This is where the kids learn the basics and improve dramatically.

From there, they start to play local league and possibly have 1 to 1 coaching.

US Rating VS Rest of World

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