Any Service Advice for Me?

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This is correct.

Only lower level amateur players play with the pace of the opponent: higher level players will force their pace on the ball.

This is why ex-pro or current pro coaches will advise to serve fast short serves, also because you can disguise a short serve as a half long and vice versa very effectively.

If you want to win points with serves yes, slow serves won't make it, only against lower level players. But for set up a point, they are excellent. I've seen my coach serve short and slow (not very slow, but quite slow) many times.
Here is a video about his match play:
(he is the winner)
 
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If you want to win points with serves yes, slow serves won't make it, only against lower level players. But for set up a point, they are excellent. I've seen my coach serve short and slow (not very slow, but quite slow) many times.
Here is a video about his match play:
(he is the winner)

If Fazekas is your coach, you are very lucky to have such a high level coach!
 
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Good video.

1:30 has always puzzled me. That's what I do when I can't return half-long backspin serves aggressively, and I've always considered it bad form, but I get away with it and can win.

If such a high level player does that, then I guess it's a valid technique. Must be the counterattack ability.
 
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Good video.

1:30 has always puzzled me. That's what I do when I can't return half-long backspin serves aggressively, and I've always considered it bad form, but I get away with it and can win.

If such a high level player does that, then I guess it's a valid technique. Must be the counterattack ability.

You must have the wrong time stamp cited...
 
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At 1:30, his opponent serves to his forehand wing with a reverse pendulum serve. He does the looping motion I am talking about and returns the serve. They exchange forehands and he eventually wins the rally, pushing the opponent on the defensive.

??

Isn't a topspin return of a serve an aggressive return? Or do you mean you have to kill the serve to be aggressive?
 
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Isn't a topspin return of a serve an aggressive return? Or do you mean you have to kill the serve to be aggressive?

I don't consider that an aggressive return. It's an offensive return that provides initiative, but he got counterattacked even despite all the spin he put on it. I've had a lot of success with this kind of return, and get a very similar return back at me, but I thought it was just because the people I'm playing can't attack it.
 
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I don't consider that an aggressive return. It's an offensive return that provides initiative, but he got counterattacked even despite all the spin he put on it. I've had a lot of success with this kind of return, and get a very similar return back at me, but I thought it was just because the people I'm playing can't attack it.

So what would be an aggressive return then? A return that wins the point outright? You still haven't answered the question. What's the opposite or contrary of aggressive? Offensive? Controlled? Defensive? Passive?

(Shaking my head puzzled...)

IT's not just the spin but the depth of the return and placement by making the opponent move. If he had put it in the middle of the table, it's one thing, but he got it deep enough to back up the opponent and allow the loop to come from a position that he could rally with.

IF you think that you always going to be able to play fast topspins against every serve or slow ball, I have an $1 billion inheritance in Burospinny land which I need $5000 to access - send me the money asap.
 
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My point is that I was not aware that such a return can even work above the "not terrible beginner but not still any good" level.

I don't think my loops have as much spin as his does, but people can still only half-attack my serve returns, like his opponent in the video. Thus I'm surprised at how effective the shot actually is, even at higher levels.

When a shot like that is played at me and placed well, I can't attack it any harder either, but I always reasoned that it's because my footwork and strokes are nothing compared to a higher level player and that the fault is mine, not because the shot is good.
 
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A high spinny loop can be very effective sometimes. Especially if it catches the opponent off guard. Sometimes you use a shot like that to help set up taking control of the rally on the 5th ball.

But against a player whose counter loop against high spinny loops is good, that kind of shot can be a mistake. But, it all depends on the opponent and what the opponent does well.

And Fazekas seems comfortable that, in an open rally he has a big edge on his opponent. So he is comfortable letting the rallies extend and being patient for openings.

BTW: video footage can be deceiving. I highly doubt Archo's high spinny loop has as much spin as Fazekas' loop.

But, we still have yet to see footage of the Jurrasic beast/man.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 
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So what would be an aggressive return then? A return that wins the point outright? You still haven't answered the question. What's the opposite or contrary of aggressive? Offensive? Controlled? Defensive? Passive?

My point is that I was not aware that such a return can even work above the "not terrible beginner but not still any good" level.

I don't think my loops have as much spin as his does, but people can still only half-attack my serve returns, like his opponent in the video. Thus I'm surprised at how effective the shot actually is, even at higher levels.

When a shot like that is played at me and placed well, I can't attack it any harder either, but I always reasoned that it's because my footwork and strokes are nothing compared to a higher level player and that the fault is mine, not because the shot is good.

I might be missing something. Did you answer his question yet? I haven't seen a higher level player only do fast shots before.
 
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My point is that I was not aware that such a return can even work above the "not terrible beginner but not still any good" level.

I don't think my loops have as much spin as his does, but people can still only half-attack my serve returns, like his opponent in the video. Thus I'm surprised at how effective the shot actually is, even at higher levels.

When a shot like that is played at me and placed well, I can't attack it any harder either, but I always reasoned that it's because my footwork and strokes are nothing compared to a higher level player and that the fault is mine, not because the shot is good.


Your statement is funny. In other words, Timo Boll doesn't exist, because Timo Boll rarely loops the ball past people. Again, it is all about shot quality. You either back them off the table or force them to loop a falling ball. But at that level, all balls can be counterlooped. As one player who was once Malaysian national champ put it in my club, at that level, when they can touch the ball, you have to assume it is coming back.

The response of your opponents is a matter of level. If I play an 1600 level player, I am a counterlooper as I can blast through their level of topspin at the table. If I play an 1800 level player, I become more of a blocker, even if I can counterloop, because I don't back off. If I play a 2000 player, I shoot first or I don't shoot again. I can block of course, but the premium on opening is higher.

You really need to watch more high level table tennis outside of CNT play. CNT play is not realistic table tennis.
 
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I think the reason of the effectiveness of this return was in the opponent's bad positioning. JJ prepared for reaching the ball if it goes wide on his forehand side. Because of the height of the ball and the placement he couldn't generate enough power in that shot.
 
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I think the reason of the effectiveness of this return was in the opponent's bad positioning. JJ prepared for reaching the ball if it goes wide on his forehand side. Because of the height of the ball and the placement he couldn't generate enough power in that shot.

This is what I'm looking for. I've felt that a slow, spinny shot played high rather than low is more effective, but couldn't really understand why because unless I'm terribly out of position, it's no problem.

Thus, you play this shot to a position where your opponent will be out of position, and that is where the effectiveness comes from even if it's not the best shot objectively. Don't risk losing the point on your attack, and set up a later attack with a higher %.
 
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My suggestions would be more about how you practice your serves.
Try to always serve as you would in a match which means only holding one ball in your hand at a time, and at least say half the time moving from the serve position into the ready position for the service return, regripping your bat in the process. Some of your tosses, at least on the reverse serve look too low and might be called illegal (if anyone ever called an illegal serve that is).
Also do you challenge yourself with goals while practicing e.g. This time I am going to try to hit 10 double bouncing top spin serves to the right half in a row. OK now I am going to do 15. I find this can also simulate the stress of a match because as you get close to your goal you get anxious that if you miss one you will need to start again.

There is no prize for rushing through 50 balls, make each one lke a match serve. I think the saying is "Practice like you play, and play like you practice".
 
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My suggestions would be more about how you practice your serves.
Try to always serve as you would in a match which means only holding one ball in your hand at a time, and at least say half the time moving from the serve position into the ready position for the service return, regripping your bat in the process. Some of your tosses, at least on the reverse serve look too low and might be called illegal (if anyone ever called an illegal serve that is).
Also do you challenge yourself with goals while practicing e.g. This time I am going to try to hit 10 double bouncing top spin serves to the right half in a row. OK now I am going to do 15. I find this can also simulate the stress of a match because as you get close to your goal you get anxious that if you miss one you will need to start again.

There is no prize for rushing through 50 balls, make each one lke a match serve. I think the saying is "Practice like you play, and play like you practice".


Yes, it's a bad habit. I've always justified it by saying that I don't have the time to get in the reps to build the muscles so I need to serve more reps. I think that I do have enough experience with my serves now that I need to get better at making the details work and trying to get better at pausing.

I play at a pretty fast pace during matches. So I definitely serve and play like I practice.
 
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My suggestions would be more about how you practice your serves.
Try to always serve as you would in a match which means only holding one ball in your hand at a time, and at least say half the time moving from the serve position into the ready position for the service return, regripping your bat in the process. Some of your tosses, at least on the reverse serve look too low and might be called illegal (if anyone ever called an illegal serve that is).
Also do you challenge yourself with goals while practicing e.g. This time I am going to try to hit 10 double bouncing top spin serves to the right half in a row. OK now I am going to do 15. I find this can also simulate the stress of a match because as you get close to your goal you get anxious that if you miss one you will need to start again.

There is no prize for rushing through 50 balls, make each one lke a match serve. I think the saying is "Practice like you play, and play like you practice".


I like this, I never practice serves, maybe about 10-20 minutes of practicing them throughout my table tennis career. But if I ever did practice them I would try and do a lot of balls quickly in an attempt to get as many reps as possible. Building nerves by trying to get a certain amount in a row sounds like a really good idea to me.

But I could also see a player that rushes their serves getting more out of rushing their practice serves. I'm the kind of player that won't make my opponent pause if they serve before I'm ready for them to. And the players that abuse this by serving too quickly tend to give me quite a bit of trouble and often come back from sticky situations.
 
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I like this, I never practice serves, maybe about 10-20 minutes of practicing them throughout my table tennis career. But if I ever did practice them I would try and do a lot of balls quickly in an attempt to get as many reps as possible. Building nerves by trying to get a certain amount in a row sounds like a really good idea to me.

But I could also see a player that rushes their serves getting more out of rushing their practice serves. I'm the kind of player that won't make my opponent pause if they serve before I'm ready for them to. And the players that abuse this by serving too quickly tend to give me quite a bit of trouble and often come back from sticky situations.

The longer you wait to practice, the further behind the eight ball you will be. The hours add up significantly, trust me. Even just one year of intense practice of 10 mins a day can reward a lifetime of play. And the earlier you do it, the better, because as you get more advanced, the quality of serves you need to start getting rewards makes you scared to use them. It's better to grow with them and then as your level advances, your serve advances to match it.

Whatever you may think of my serves in the original video, they are 2000 level serves. They are not by my best serves either - my best serve is my backspin no-spin serve, both on my forehand and backhand sides. My backhand pendulum is a close second, but I don't know how to keep it short and low - if I could do that, it would become my number 1 really fast. When I play pips players, I can earn at least 2-4 free points a game just by getting people to either push my backspin into the net or my no-spin off the table with their pips. Maybe that will give you some motivation.

The one benefit you may have is that if you have no serves, you don't have bad habits to overwrite. In that case, find a coach with really good serves to teach you so that you don't start on the wrong foot. Serving responds to coaching better than any other part of the game, yet it is the part that players look for coaching the least on.
 
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The longer you wait to practice, the further behind the eight ball you will be. The hours add up significantly, trust me. Even just one year of intense practice of 10 mins a day can reward a lifetime of play. And the earlier you do it, the better, because as you get more advanced, the quality of serves you need to start getting rewards makes you scared to use them. It's better to grow with them and then as your level advances, your serve advances to match it.

Whatever you may think of my serves in the original video, they are 2000 level serves. They are not by my best serves either - my best serve is my backspin no-spin serve, both on my forehand and backhand sides. My backhand pendulum is a close second, but I don't know how to keep it short and low - if I could do that, it would become my number 1 really fast. When I play pips players, I can earn at least 2-4 free points a game just by getting people to either push my backspin into the net or my no-spin off the table with their pips. Maybe that will give you some motivation.

The one benefit you may have is that if you have no serves, you don't have bad habits to overwrite. In that case, find a coach with really good serves to teach you so that you don't start on the wrong foot. Serving responds to coaching better than any other part of the game, yet it is the part that players look for coaching the least on.

Interestingly enough, I know that service practice would be good for me. But I've rarely had a chance to actually do this. No room for a table at my place. And at the clubs I play at the tables are all pretty full. The only chance I'd ever really have is at my coaches house but she says my serves are above my level at the moment and would rather work on some other things to better round myself out.
 
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Interestingly enough, I know that service practice would be good for me. But I've rarely had a chance to actually do this. No room for a table at my place. And at the clubs I play at the tables are all pretty full. The only chance I'd ever really have is at my coaches house but she says my serves are above my level at the moment and would rather work on some other things to better round myself out.

IT would be interesting to understand what she means by your serves being above your level.

1) I know what it means in the context of people who generate more spin on their serves than they can play behind and read.
2) Or maybe you would win at least 3 points per game off an opponent who has never played you before just by serving, or
3) your serves never get attacked at your level in a way that costs you points even against people who play you all the time but are very aggressive.

People used to tell me when I was lower rated that I had good serves because people weren't attacking them hard. But when I started working with Brett, all of a sudden, I stopped losing to players rated much lower than myself. Initially, I found it puzzling, but over time, it became clearer to me that just by transferring what I learned about the reverse pendulum serve to other parts of my game, my serve deception went up, and suddenly players who would just return my serves and relax actually had to read the ball and this drew more errors and made them hesitate too. And my spin went up too, so I could get more errors on serve return.

But I had decent strokes already so I rarely ever served harder than I could attack. But just the improved serving made it easier to get a ball to attack behind. Because the errors made people return less confidently while in the past, after a couple of serves, people would stop missing because they knew what was on the ball and could tell more easily when I varied the quality.

The other thing that really understanding serving does is improve your strokes. Because people learn this sport in different ways. The first thing that raised the level of my loop was being able to get spin on my high toss serves. This let me see the importance of short whip motions (before I ever heard the word whip from Brett or anyone else) and I suddenly started using short whip motions to loop instead of proper loops. My consistency went through the roof when playing pips players. Even now, my loop is largely an arm whip with little if anything else done properly, but I generate some of the highest spin in my club, even more than some proper form loopers.

So it's things like this that make me tell people to work on their serves - because you never know where the insights will come from. Even learning to serve helped me return serves better. I still cannot read spin, but sometimes, I see the ball, and I remember it looking like something I served in my own videos, so I can tell that it is not what I used to think it was and it miraculously stays on the table with quality after I execute my stroke.
 
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