Transferring skills from practice to games

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Mar 2016
7
6
29
I have access to a friend's table with a robot for practice. I use it to practice certain basic strokes (I would be around 800 USATT rating) and then I play at a small local competitive club once a week.

The problem I am consistently facing is that I will practice a stroke for weeks on the robot and get pretty decent at it, but then at the end of a club session I will find that I never got a chance to use it.

The stroke right now I am practicing is a backhand loop, really at this point it's not even that fancy, just a backhand drive/counter with decent spin. I don't play too far from the table so it's not like I'm trying some huge power stroke. Also at my level I get a fair amount of backspin pushes towards my backhand so there should be enough opportunities for me to use this shot. But I never could.

I also put the robot to oscillate so I'm not just practicing against a monotonic ball from it. So I do two forehands, two backhands in succession. But it of course places the ball on the same spot every time.

Any ideas why this is happening and how I can transfer those skills to real game play quicker? Maybe it's mental? Thanks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NextLevel
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,272
17,728
44,267
Read 17 reviews
I have access to a friend's table with a robot for practice. I use it to practice certain basic strokes (I would be around 800 USATT rating) and then I play at a small local competitive club once a week.

The problem I am consistently facing is that I will practice a stroke for weeks on the robot and get pretty decent at it, but then at the end of a club session I will find that I never got a chance to use it.

The stroke right now I am practicing is a backhand loop, really at this point it's not even that fancy, just a backhand drive/counter with decent spin. I don't play too far from the table so it's not like I'm trying some huge power stroke. Also at my level I get a fair amount of backspin pushes towards my backhand so there should be enough opportunities for me to use this shot. But I never could.

I also put the robot to oscillate so I'm not just practicing against a monotonic ball from it. So I do two forehands, two backhands in succession. But it of course places the ball on the same spot every time.

Any ideas why this is happening and how I can transfer those skills to real game play quicker? Maybe it's mental? Thanks.
BSHD,

This video, while it is applied to sports less complex than table tennis, may help you appreciate what is going on.


In table tennis, you need to learn to read where the ball is going and the spin being placed on the ball. Then you need to move to and prepare your stroke, and then execute it properly. The biggest and most complex thing is estimating and reading the amount of spin on the ball given its flight and trajectory and speed. This determines where on the ball you have to make contact and how fast you have to swing to get a desired result. This takes a lot of time to build up, even if you are hitting strokes in practice. In fact, a robot makes it harder to build because you aren't getting used to reading the ball off the stroke of your opponent and the robot consistently produces the same spin. In real matches, the spin is varying, the trajectory is varying, the placement is varying. If you didn't challenge yourself in practice to adjust to all these things, it will not happen in a match.

The good thing is that if you learn the rules of adapting to spin and play more and more, it will get better with time. The bad news is that if you hate to miss, you are going to be missing the ball for a long time. It's one of those things that you have to trust will get better with practice and it does. This is why it is more important to make sure you have a coach and are hitting the right strokes.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,272
17,728
44,267
Read 17 reviews
As will probably be said a billion times, but a video would really help to diagnose anything that might be making it very hard for you to dynamically play the stroke on a ball that changes spin and placement.

This is VERY true and you are right to bring it up. That said, the problem that OP is describing is a general one that isn't always fixed consciously and the main issue is more about attitude and expectations. It happens at every level of play and with almost every new skill learned in a block practice fashion.

Taking any skill from block practice to matches is complicated in table tennis and most people used to other sports where block practice is more similar to matches tend to get amazed by how hours of block practice give no reward in matches.
If more learners appreciated how complex the process was, they would do much better. In fact, plenty of the tension yo see in table tennis is exhibited by adults who think that the key to getting better is to try harder. The true key to getting better is putting in the hours to let your mind adjust to reading the ball or putting in the hours trying to solve the problems you face in matches in your practice. Trying harder in general doesn't necessarily mean the same thing.

Plenty of the value I give my students is talking them through the improvement process so that they don't build up the nervous tension that they generally would build up if they felt that they needed to tense up to play better. My guess is that OP is feeling the frustration of most adult learners of having practiced hard and wondering why the heck he isn't ripping winners. It just doesn't work that way. A good reference is the experttabletennis podcast featuring Marc Burnham.
 
says what [IMG]
Oh yeah, be prepared to lose a lot if you want to actually develop yourself.

Even if it feels like it's not working, try to incorporate your practice skills into your matches, even if you get your ass handed to you on a plate. It'll pay off when it starts sticking.

Of course, this also means that you shouldn't really be competing yet. There should be no reason for you to care about anything else other than improving your ability, and competition makes that nigh impossible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BunsenHoneydew
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,272
17,728
44,267
Read 17 reviews
Oh yeah, be prepared to lose a lot if you want to actually develop yourself.

Even if it feels like it's not working, try to incorporate your practice skills into your matches, even if you get your ass handed to you on a plate. It'll pay off when it starts sticking.

Of course, this also means that you shouldn't really be competing yet. There should be no reason for you to care about anything else other than improving your ability, and competition makes that nigh impossible.

It depends on how you think about competition. Competition is as much about mental skills as it is about shot selection as it is about shot execution. Some people will say that since you can't execute the shot, wait. I think that even if you drill, there is a risk of not being able to execute the shot in the match. As long as you are practicing, over time, the shot will become match ready and you will use it. But there are reasons to use other approaches with other players. There are good reasons to play even if your shots are not match ready. Competing and knowing when you are prepared to do something are only learned in matches.
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,685
54,747
Read 11 reviews
NextLevel has included all the important information. Watch that video. That video explains the secret. You have to learn how to apply the secret of how to wrinkle the random element into your training.

The thing about block training, where you know exactly where the next ball will be, is that, in a game situation, your opponent is not going to be trying to hit the ball right to your racket so you can make the exact shot you want. The idea of training your ability to read and plan while training the mechanics of your stroke is worthwhile. Learning drills that help you see sooner where the ball is going, what spin is on the ball, and causes you to calculate a variety of responses to the ball coming to you, in that quick moment in time from when your ball bounces on your opponent's side to when your opponent has just contacted the ball, is far more what match play is about than what stroke you can do when you know where the ball is going.

I have heard one of the coaches in NYC explain many times how important it is in table tennis that you are watching your opponent and are ready to respond to what they give you. That, often, this is more important, according to him, than the technique of the stroke of the player, because you can't do anything to the ball if you are not ready to respond to it.

So you need to train those skills of reading what is coming at you in a random scenario and planing what to do with the actual ball that is coming to you--this is essential to work on if you hope to take skills and strokes learned in block training into match play.
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,685
54,747
Read 11 reviews
More thoughts from deep space:

You say in your post you have people push to your BH a lot and want to be able to loop it.

Is the robot feeding you backspin?

Looping a topspin ball will not help you loop backspin. They are two slightly different skills. To work on looping backspin, you have to practice looping backspin.

I know, it sounds redundant. Hahaha.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 

Dan

says editing a big TTD Team episode... stay tuned 👀

Dan

says editing a big TTD Team episode... stay tuned 👀
Well-Known Member
Administrator
Aug 2010
7,079
4,755
16,880
Read 72 reviews
Lots of great points already covered. We have another topic similar to this but I cannot find it right now. Shame as there were also many fantastic posts in the previous topic. Here is a article I wrote on icoachtabletennis.com which talks similar to what Der_Echte has mentioned: http://www.icoachtabletennis.com/motor-learning-block-vs-random-practice-in-table-tennis/

Waldner also spoke about this topic in our recent podcast with him on how he practiced a lot of match play type exercises in his practice: http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/podcast/12653-tabletennisdaily-podcast-11-jan-ove-waldner/

Be patient @BunsenHoneydew and enjoy the game. Play lots of different players and styles, you will get there :) Welcome to TTD!
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Mar 2016
7
6
29
Wow what tremendous replies from everybody. (For some reason I wasn't getting email notifications, I thought nobody replied until the forum admin himself told me).

So what I am learning is:
*** Watch that video multiple times

*** Get someone to videotape me, so I can see what the heck I am doing wrong. But this is scary. In my mind, my form (while still developing, of course) is a subtle combination of JO Waldner and Ma Lin; what if I turn out to look like a drunken marionette chopping wood??

*** Play to learn, not to win:
1) Start watching the other player's movements and spin, even if that slows me down. Right now I don't watch the other player at all, I'm just trying to get the ball over to the other side any which way. You experts will find this amusing: Last week, in one match I didn't notice my opponent was left-handed until afterwards.
2) Try to play each stroke with correct form even if it loses the point. That means sacrificing the safe pushes which "get the ball across" and instead keep trying to play the more advanced, aggresive strokes I practice - even if they fail.

In reply to UpsideDownCarl: yes I have the robot feeding me backspin. Indeed looping of backspin vs. topspin has a very different feel. I'm fairly good at compensating for that. With the robot. Unfortunately the robot doesn't have a randomizing element.

Our club matches you up weekly with people of your own rating level, and in my range nobody really delivers much topspin. Lots of very good pushers; in a pushing match they can patiently return my ball a dozen times and will invariably win the point. Nobody handles topspin well, so I try to play aggressively and end the point quickly with my forehand loop. If I can deliver topspin consistently from the backhand, it should help me move up to the next level. The problem is in a real game I often forget my plan and get trapped in endless push-battles which don't favor me.

So now I see there are several non-mechanical things I need to improve beyond just putting in time. Maybe enlist a friend to give me advice between games of each match and remind me of the game plan.

About not competing: I think I'll still compete, I don't mind losing. It's not like there's anything at stake. I'm old (50). The only problem with losing is, next week you'll play against lower players. But if I'm playing to learn, that should be fine.

I do hope putting in time with the robot is still beneficial. I still need to learn how to hit the basic shots, so I hope the robot isn't actually doing me harm. Besides it's good exercise, builds up my weak hitting strength, and is just plain fun.

Thanks to everybody for your advice! I'm off to watch the video.
 
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,821
13,210
30,387
Read 27 reviews
It is a fact that any improvements in Practice usually take many months to be immediately effective in a match. Think 6 months.

There are some things that you correct can give you immediate results. (Think making a heavy short underspin where you couldn't before)

Just be ready to accept it will take a long azz time to see the fruits grow in a match. You are under pressure in a not so great position, opponent is doing this to you and even if consistency in a fixed drill goes up, it takes a LONG time to do this dynamically in a match under pressure.

Just take it for what it is worth. There are any ways to do things and many ways to put them together. They all take time and practice and failure and knowing why you failed and rinse/repeat.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BunsenHoneydew
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Mar 2016
7
6
29
Wow that video pretty much describes exactly what I was asking about in my own game. Now it's clear all my practice has been all focused on "technique" and zero on "reading" and "planning".

Will start using the weekly competition matches as my "random practice" from now on.

The one thing I found helpful with the robot was switching on the oscillation. I had gotten really good at hitting back balls hit at a fixed point, and making it sweep the table was a big jump in difficulty (by making me do bit more of "reading" and "planning"). Next I will try to increase the speed at which it sweeps, maybe that will help a bit. But clearly, the "random practice" against human opponents is going to be the biggest factor in any improvement from this stage onwards.

Much thanks to all, again, and "NextLevel" for the video. That is clearly the key to MY "next level"!
 
  • Like
Reactions: UpSideDownCarl
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Mar 2016
7
6
29
One quick question. Between my matches I have to wait for other people to finish theirs. Is it possible to practice "reading" by watching from the stands? I usually just talk to other people or aimlessly wander around, I don't really watch the other matches. Obviously the best learning is while you yourself are at the table, just wondering if it's also productive to watch other people play.
 
says what [IMG]
One quick question. Between my matches I have to wait for other people to finish theirs. Is it possible to practice "reading" by watching from the stands? I usually just talk to other people or aimlessly wander around, I don't really watch the other matches. Obviously the best learning is while you yourself are at the table, just wondering if it's also productive to watch other people play.
You should be watching some professional games every day, but more importantly, you should be watching what people at and around your level do, so you can do better.

If you can notice that the other person responded late and you noticed where the ball was going before they moved, you can be one step ahead if you don't make the same mistake yourself. Watching from the stands allows you to practice watching the player without the pressure of the game, even if you're not really there receiving it yourself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BunsenHoneydew
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,272
17,728
44,267
Read 17 reviews
One quick question. Between my matches I have to wait for other people to finish theirs. Is it possible to practice "reading" by watching from the stands? I usually just talk to other people or aimlessly wander around, I don't really watch the other matches. Obviously the best learning is while you yourself are at the table, just wondering if it's also productive to watch other people play.

Don't overthink it. If you really want to improve fast, you need a good coach or mentor to talk you through the process. IF that is not available, just have fun playing. There is no magic formula to success other than to hang around successful people and let what they do rub off on you.
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,685
54,747
Read 11 reviews
So what I am learning is:

Yes. That video had the most important piece of info you needed.

Get someone to videotape me, so I can see what the heck I am doing wrong. But this is scary. In my mind, my form (while still developing, of course) is a subtle combination of JO Waldner and Ma Lin; what if I turn out to look like a drunken marionette chopping wood??

I love that post. Totally honest. Don't worry about it. If you did end up looking worse than you thought, which is normal, you will also see things you can improve on.

Play to learn, not to win:
1) Start watching the other player's movements and spin, even if that slows me down. Right now I don't watch the other player at all, I'm just trying to get the ball over to the other side any which way. You experts will find this amusing: Last week, in one match I didn't notice my opponent was left-handed until afterwards.

You are not alone. Playing lower level players I will frequently switch to lefty. It is entertaining how few lower level players notice and respond accordingly. But what your opponent does is hugely important to how you should respond to it. You can't get better if you are not doing a good job of observing as much of what your opponent does as possible.

2) Try to play each stroke with correct form even if it loses the point. That means sacrificing the safe pushes which "get the ball across" and instead keep trying to play the more advanced, aggresive strokes I practice - even if they fail.

Sort of but not always. In the right circumstances trying to do a topspin stroke vs backspin can be useful. But if you pressure yourself to do a topspin stroke in match play when you really are not ready for it, you could end up cementing fear, tension and bad mechanics into your stroke.

What you actually want to do is some semi set, semi random drills to learn to loop backspin in a real life situation.

Here are 3 drills. They are all the same and they are still a bit different.

1) you serve, your training partner pushes long, you attack. At first you should have the drill done so that the push goes to your BH. When you are solid progress this to be more random and the push goes long anywhere. But first making it so you can loop the long push with the BH before getting ready for the long push anywhere.

2) training partner serves, you push, training partner pushes, you attack. The should start with BH and then progress to random push as well.

3) you serve, partner pushes, you push, partner pushes, you attack.

The last one is for you to get used to switching from a game where there are several pushes to switch gears and open.

As you get better at those drills you will find yourself get more and more comfortable attacking the push in a real match.

In reply to UpsideDownCarl: yes I have the robot feeding me backspin.

Cool.

Continuing to compete is worth it. It is also worth finding someone you can do match simulation training drills with. They will really help you improve.

I do hope putting in time with the robot is still beneficial. I still need to learn how to hit the basic shots, so I hope the robot isn't actually doing me harm. Besides it's good exercise, builds up my weak hitting strength, and is just plain fun.

Rest assured. The time you spend with the robot is not only fun. It is beneficial and will not harm your game. But getting those skills into match play requires something to bridge the gap between block training and the random element that happens in a match.

The drills I listed are a start. As you improve the drills you need will also change. But those are a good start.

And there is no question that watching matches with players of all levels is really, very useful.

And, again, the advice NextLevel is giving in the post below is top quality. And worth reading more than once. Then, hit the like button on his post.

Don't overthink it. If you really want to improve fast, you need a good coach or mentor to talk you through the process. IF that is not available, just have fun playing. There is no magic formula to success other than to hang around successful people and let what they do rub off on you.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,272
17,728
44,267
Read 17 reviews
Samson Dubina, a pro player and coach, once wrote that getting proficient at looping backspin van take 1-2 years. Initially, I thought he was wrong but later, even if I didn't completely agree with him, I appreciated the gist of what he was writing. Don't underestimate the complexity of TT.
 
This user has no status.
I just have to ask this question: Where in the world is the "like" button for these posts??? I've been searching all over my laptop screen at home, my desktop screen at work and even on my cell phone for weeks! I even had my friends looking for it but can't find this darn "like" button! It's driving me up a wall....Please help :D
 
Top