How to perfect your timing on the backhand banana flip receive?

A few questions:

Do you know how to come around the side of the ball and avoid the main spin axis when banana flipping straight backspin? I'm not saying this is the best option for you in a real match, but it would be a good test for your whip mechanics and racket head speed to be able to banana flip straight backspin.

But are you saying you are committing your elbow to a banana flip position before even reading the servers' spin? It sounds like you might be committing too early.

How do you guys get ready for the banana flip if the server keeps changing between spins?

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That is a one million dollar question...

Being in position is the important thing. On a short serve you simply MUST step in. You will be off-balance, hit out of zone with little leverage and acelleration out of position.

The next thing is ELBOW POSITION. For a banana, you need to get that elbow out front to you side a little and high, with lower arm almost pointing to the table.

You have this position and initial placement of teh elbow, you will be able to generate a much more reliable whipping motion and control over the ball. Just trust me and try that out when you get a chance to mess around.

Show me a vid of you failing at it a few times on vid and I will point out your position and elbow.

Transferring power and getting final bat angle at the end is so much easier when you are close to the ball and got that elbow out there.

It makes your like SO MUCH easier - night and day difference.

No matter how much spin opponent puts on the ball, if you step in, be in position with elbow out front and let the shot happen, (with a natural power transfer) you will be amazed at the kind of serves you can safely land.

I did that flip by yourself solo drill with a player at Chantilly the other night. Then we got to FH to FH, then I suggested a drill - Banana flipping. I got him from low 20s percent to over 80 percent in the same night. I focused on his step in and elbow position.

We did a drill where we play a game - serve serves only short underspin anywhere, receiver steps in and BH banana flips ball, then play out point.

This dude was suddenly smokin' BH flips high percentage !!!!

Try it out yourself. Of course I over-simplified, but those are two key areas we all get wrong when we go live in a match.

I would say the key points have been covered by the Der_Meister. And trust me when I say, Der knows BH flip. He could be called, BHMan if he wasn't called Der_Echte!!! Hahaha.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

There are a few ways to look at it.

One way I already said, if you are there, in position, with good leverage and timing on rise of bounce, you can make any shot. You are overcoming the sidespin with your impact if you can whip it enough. (Cue in Devo - Whip it ! )

You can step into position and as you are about to plant your foot, you are real close to teh ball and can see it well, so you can lower the elbow to make a more conventional forward flip. It is touch and acceleration, use loose wrist at first, and later, make more whip and firm up at impact.

You can also do a banana flip that is 1/2 of each. Your elbow is in the middle ground of height between the two. Banana has elbow up there, and regular flip has it lower to table. That way, you are still impacting the ball not exactly directly on its spinning axis, which gives you some leeway to re-spin the ball.

You could also take it right off the bounce with a very soft wrist and catch and throw it over. Spin bites less on the ball if you take it real early, but you gotta be real loose. You will get it back safe with some spin or no spin if you kill the spin. it wont be a killer flip, but it will land and that is better than losing the point on a miss or pushing it back. If you place it well you can always go for more on the next ball.

If you are committed to do a 100% banana and you realize too late what the spin is mostly sidespin, then your most practical options are to soften the wrist and flip it off the bounce safely and slow it down, or you can let teh shot go and really whip it to overcome the spin on the ball.

Have confidence, if you get right up on it and you see it, you can make the shot, you gotta believe it if you can make the whip well enough.

I have become quite good at Banana flick. I use it all the time now. My main problem is not executing it, but rather to be able to read the service properly because if i try to execute Banana flick on a half long or long serve thats a high risk to make a mistake !!!!

Yet, my technique is not perfect because so far if i have fairly good % of execution, I have not much variation in execution.

1) it is important to know on which serves it is easy to make the banana flick. Because of the side spin, some serves are easier to receive with the banana flick, some are more difficult, and a normal flick (or push) is to be preferred... but usually reading the serve is the crucial point
2) timing wise, always hit the ball just AFTER the top of the bounce. Banana flick on short balls, always step in, keep your upper body low (as well as your lower body) and move your free arm towards the ball to have a good balance. the free arm is really important.
3) assuming you are right handed and receiving pendulum serve from right hand player:
always go for the diagonal. if the serve goes in the middle or 2/3-3/4 BH hit the ball slightly on the side and aim for the opponents BH. i would another usually play BH behind it or sometimes pivot directly.

if the serve goes to the FH, hit the ball sideways on the back (= gesture parallel to the back line) and aim on the deep FH of the opponent. it will surprise a lot of them. However if they get used to it, they will attack strongly with their FH so get prepared to make a block with your BH covering the middle as well into the opponents BH. if it goes to my FH, i improvise. i am rather good in FH.
if the ball goes too much on the BH side of the table, execution is too difficult, i prefer to go for a push or stop receive with the BH.
4) if trying to receive a BH serve on the FH from rightie or a pendulum serve from a leftie on your middle on FH side, then aim middle or straight. put less speed more spin because there is less table. in doubles against FH serve its a good receive as well.
5) against YG serve (= reverse pendulum serve) from right hand player in the BH side, don't do the banana flick, do the normal flick, with a more forward move, and arming the wrist at 6 o'clock. surely its not impossible to do a banana flick, but i think its much more difficult (as for me, i cannot do it consistently against this serve)
6) Lastly, remember that for a banana flick, when arming, you should twist your wrist and the tip of your racket should be at 3'clock . if not, you're just doing a flick, not a banana flick.
7) Usually i need to decide BEFORE the server serves that im going for banana flick if he serves short. but the serve is short, but sometimes i feel its got a lot of underspin, then i decide at the last moment to stop-receive short. the execution of course may well be approximative because its a last second decision, however, the opponent may be surprised as well...do not commit for this banana flick if the incoming ball is too difficult

My two cents. First lets accept this is an advanced shot and requires quite a few things to fall into place. Its not just about understanding what to do but this particular shot needs repetition. So you need somebody to feed you slow multiballs or short serves where you practice this.

You could try to piece the different parts together , first practicing the arm mechanics with a dead dropping ball that Der_Echte has suggested .


Then start practicing the footwork where you get into position early and then wait for the ball, don't do a banana flip but just a push with backhand from the forehand side , kind of like what Obtcharov does and then immediately come back to the backhand corner.

Then you can ask somebody to feed you multiball with the spin you have trouble with and keep trying different timings till you get comfortable. But the important thing is the recovery footwork , without that the banana flip is actually more dangerous to you than your opponent . Its better not do the chiquita if you can't recover, but at the same time you have to commit completely to the actual shot. This what makes this shot so difficult.

Next comes placement, I would say start with body and then try to go further to the backhand position of you opponent.
Don't go the forehand unless you have a penholder who is keeping his forehand open and has trouble. I have found most higher level players don't have issues in counterlooping the banana on the forehand side unless its very good quality.

I personally don't prefer to do a full backhand banana unless its side under. If its pure side you could do a pure soft topspin flick using wrists since the ball already has enough side spin to give the opponent problem. If its dead ball, I try either to side swipe it like a violin or do a dead flip with out adding too much spin.

A lot of players will use their free hand to guide into the ball contact position, it helps line up the ball. This is something I usually do with mine. It's important to always try and get the ball in a central position to your body, it is a lot harder to control from outside your shoulders or too far away from you.

As mentioned above it's really about practicing it against a lot of different service variations so that the adjustments to position and angle become more automated in matches. Not an easy task, takes a lot of practice!

@ttmonster

for a long while i thought it was an advanced shot. I don't consider myself as an advanced player, a good intermediate level. nonetheless, if one cannot do a "normal" BH properly, most probably he won't be able to do the banana flick.

the thing is, if you are taught and understand the technique, its not THAT difficult, at least against some types of incoming balls. For a long time, i thought i shouldn't waste my time trying to learn this kind of stroke, but I'm happy now i was positive and made the proper efforts to learn it. I learnt it really in the last months whereas i've played for 20 years without doing it. I think - for example - i'm better at it, than counter looping BH that i still don't master (i can block or play topspin BH near the table but one stepaway, i'm already too far i start to have a balance and timing problem). Or, i'm just starting to manage to do FH flicks. i started learning the techniques roughly at the same time, i'm finding the BH banana flick easier to execute.

we have to accept also that against some heavy underspin serve, its just better to push. some excellent pros can do banana flick against ANY ball, if we can do it on MOST (or a good % of) balls thats good enough at our level.

of course, its best to learn with multiballs, or at least to ask a partner to feed some different kind of short serves, and just do repeat the technique. once the technique works well, there is the need to understand which ball comes next and to be able to ancipate. as we're going agressively to the ball, we have to expect a deep counter shot on the other side of the table and get ready for it.

just my own experience; every player is different.

Against a heavy backspin ball, does the bat start with being vertically down and the coming up (brushing the ball on the back/ vertical edge) or does it still start nearly horizontal (parallel to the table) and then brushing the ball (between the top and the middle of the back of the all)?

JeffM said:

Against a heavy backspin ball, does the bat start with being vertically down and the coming up (brushing the ball on the back/ vertical edge) or does it still start nearly horizontal (parallel to the table) and then brushing the ball (between the top and the middle of the back of the all)?

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as for me, as i wrote above (pls read it), the bat for the banana flick always start at 3'oclock..that is on the side, the tip of the racket on the RIGHT. you have to twist your wrist for that.

against a slightly underspin ball, i will try the flick. against a low and heavy underspin ball i will just push it back long or stop-receive, if i try the banana flick i would miss the ball or do a net-miss.

Takkyu_wa_inochi said:

as for me, as i wrote above (pls read it), the bat for the banana flick always start at 3'oclock..that is on the side, the tip of the racket on the RIGHT. you have to twist your wrist for that.

against a slightly underspin ball, i will try the flick. against a low and heavy underspin ball i will just push it back long or stop-receive, if i try the banana flick i would miss the ball or do a net-miss.

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Thanks Takkyuwa_inoch, I did read your post, but as I have not been taught before, I still do not quite understand. I am a penhold player and not sure if that makes anything different to shakehand.

I get that you have to twist your wrist to get to the 3 o'clock position, I do that most of the time too, but the way i did it was that I brushed the top back of the ball with a horizontal motion instead of an upward lift, so that is why I can do it if the backspin is moderate. But if the spin is heavy, i am usually unable to do so, and the ball ends up in the net.

From what I read, you suggest to brush the side of the ball, is that at the middle level or closer to the top?

I was curious as to whether I should start with the bat hanging down at 6 o'clock, contacting the ball at the back (middle) then coming up in a circular motion to lift the ball up?

JeffM said:

Thanks Takkyuwa_inoch, I did read your post, but as I have not been taught before, I still do not quite understand. I am a penhold player and not sure if that makes anything different to shakehand.

I get that you have to twist your wrist to get to the 3 o'clock position, I do that most of the time too, but the way i did it was that I brushed the top back of the ball with a horizontal motion instead of an upward lift, so that is why I can do it if the backspin is moderate. But if the spin is heavy, i am usually unable to do so, and the ball ends up in the net.

From what I read, you suggest to brush the side of the ball, is that at the middle level or closer to the top?

I was curious as to whether I should start with the bat hanging down at 6 o'clock, contacting the ball at the back (middle) then coming up in a circular motion to lift the ball up?

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hmmm i am not a penholder, what i said is valid for shakehand player. i don't think i see penholders doing banana flick.
if anything, the technique should be adapted a bit.

as a general rule, its easier to fight the underspin by hitting the ball near the pole, but its not necessary to hit it right at the pole either.

I heard several theories about chiquita:
hit the ball nearest to the pole to suffer less the underspin
hit on the back of the ball anyway for more control

as for me i adapt a little bit as in previous post depending on the incoming ball. when receiving from BH side towards BH, i hit the ball slightly on the side. when i receive from FH side, i aim for the back of the ball to play wide of the FH. if i took on the side of the ball from that position, that would be going to the short side of the table, it looks even more difficult and advanced as a fine balance between spin and speed is necessary

there is no need for an upward lift i believe its absolutely wrong. to put more spin, its about really arming maximum the wrist, and doing the move with a lot of speed, brushing the ball a maximum. the stroke should be perpendicular to the ball, almost no need to give horizontal speed. because then the ball would go out, so you would naturally make a less speedy move to adjust for that, but then you suffer from the underspin.

if the incoming ball has topspin, close the bat angle.

if the ball has too much underspin, don't try the flick, push it long agressively or short. actually its more a problem for the opponent because if you have good touch, he will have to face his own underspin. There is no shame in doing that. i believe its the good choice. the banana flick would be too risky.

Takkyu_wa_inochi said:

@ttmonster

for a long while i thought it was an advanced shot. I don't consider myself as an advanced player, a good intermediate level. nonetheless, if one cannot do a "normal" BH properly, most probably he won't be able to do the banana flick.

the thing is, if you are taught and understand the technique, its not THAT difficult, at least against some types of incoming balls. For a long time, i thought i shouldn't waste my time trying to learn this kind of stroke, but I'm happy now i was positive and made the proper efforts to learn it. I learnt it really in the last months whereas i've played for 20 years without doing it. I think - for example - i'm better at it, than counter looping BH that i still don't master (i can block or play topspin BH near the table but one stepaway, i'm already too far i start to have a balance and timing problem). Or, i'm just starting to manage to do FH flicks. i started learning the techniques roughly at the same time, i'm finding the BH banana flick easier to execute.

we have to accept also that against some heavy underspin serve, its just better to push. some excellent pros can do banana flick against ANY ball, if we can do it on MOST (or a good % of) balls thats good enough at our level.

of course, its best to learn with multiballs, or at least to ask a partner to feed some different kind of short serves, and just do repeat the technique. once the technique works well, there is the need to understand which ball comes next and to be able to ancipate. as we're going agressively to the ball, we have to expect a deep counter shot on the other side of the table and get ready for it.

just my own experience; every player is different.

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I agree with your experience. In fact, I think it is a general mistake to call shots beginner or advanced. I think that people should learn all the shots that fit into how they want to play over time and spend more time on the ones relevant to their current games. My position is based on the idea that if you learn to counterloop at low intermediate level, you will be learning to counterloop against low intermediate level loops (similar to your point). That way the technique can grow with you as you get better and as your strokes get better.

As long as you are learning fundamentally sound technique, I don't believe in beginner or advanced strokes. Just sound technique.

These are two best banana flicking videos I know in English. There are better videos for learning but these are the best for analyzing.

@JeffM : The principles should be the same, did you look up Xu Xin and Wang Hao's technique analysis to find clues on the mechanics ?



However, I don't want to scare you , one of my friends did have wrist issues when doing the RPB too much without learning it from a coach , it may be a good idea to get somebody to look into your technique

@NextLevel @ Takkyu : While I agree with the basis of your idea that a player should try to develop as a complete player from one level to the next , I can't say I wholeheartedly agree on this one particular shot. This shot changes the game a lot , from footwork to anticipation , to the amount and direction of spin on the third ball and in my experience it takes quite a while to integrate it into the game. Infact, I have found that sometimes some other flaws tend to get into the game due to this shot if we are not careful. That was the reasoning why I called it "advanced"