How to perfect your timing on the backhand banana flip receive?

Takkyu_wa_inochi · Mar 26, 2016

ttmonster said:
@JeffM : The principles should be the same, did you look up Xu Xin and Wang Hao's technique analysis to find clues on the mechanics ?

However, I don't want to scare you , one of my friends did have wrist issues when doing the RPB too much without learning it from a coach , it may be a good idea to get somebody to look into your technique

@NextLevel @ Takkyu : While I agree with the basis of your idea that a player should try to develop as a complete player from one level to the next , I can't say I wholeheartedly agree on this one particular shot. This shot changes the game a lot , from footwork to anticipation , to the amount and direction of spin on the third ball and in my experience it takes quite a while to integrate it into the game. Infact, I have found that sometimes some other flaws tend to get into the game due to this shot if we are not careful. That was the reasoning why I called it "advanced"

I agree that the RPB will not solve every problem, and indeed it creates a new range of problem.
in my experience, what im finding out, is that against players around same level than me or lower ranked, it becomes a strength, and can win a lot of points and hence the match.
Against stronger players, they will manage to counterattack strongly sometimes (sometimes not !

) so i need to up my game after that flick. but thats an improvement in itself and also thats an additional receive, (i have other receiving options), and puts more pressure on the server to execute a good service.
A few years ago, i would have said that receiving is the main weakness in my game. Now i wouldn't say that anymore. i have of course still many weaknesses, but my serve game is more problematic now !

UpSideDownCarl · Mar 26, 2016

Shiro said:
...but i am having problems as to when to get ready to use it...

The only real answer to this, knowing when to get ready to use it is this:

That is not a technical consideration that is about knowing. You are thinking about this the wrong way. It is not like you just go, "oh, hey, now is a good time to use the BH flip," or, "this is the wrong time to use it."

A player who is good at BH flip can use it on any short serve. ANY. When they choose to use it or not is primarily tactical not technical. If you can flip any short serve and your opponent starts seeing you flipping a lot of his serves, then, dropping a short push every so often is tactically quite intelligent.

The only way to get to be able to flip any short ball is to practice, practice, practice. Do serve and receive drills where your training partner is serving short serves anywhere, and any spin. And then when you can read, move to and BH flip any short serve, then you will be able to choose when you want to or not.

But the real question you are actually asking is: how do I get better at reading where serves are going and what spin is on them so I can make a fast and intelligent decision about what return to use. And the only real answer to that is that you have to practice receiving serves A LOT. A LOT. A LOT. And then you have to practice receiving serves even more.

As you are receiving any serve there are always a large variety of ways to return them. Choosing is a split second decision as the ball is on its way to you. Sometimes you are thinking push and then right after the ball bounces on your side you change your mind and decide to flip. Sometimes the exact opposite happens. The more practiced at receiving serves, the larger variety of ways you practice receiving serves, the more time you will feel you have in the space from where the ball bounces on the opponent's side to when you are about to make contact.

In that time between the first bounce and your contact, you get better and faster at making choices about how to receive serves.

But the essential detail is that you have to practice receiving serves A LOT.

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Archosaurus · Mar 26, 2016

NextLevel has a good point.

Banana flicking at low amateur level and top 10 level is completely different, there's practically nothing similar, but it's still banana flicking.

If you can flick low level serves, you can better flick higher level serves later on, even if the old technique and quality of shot isn't enough.

NextLevel · Mar 26, 2016

ttmonster said:
@NextLevel @ Takkyu : While I agree with the basis of your idea that a player should try to develop as a complete player from one level to the next , I can't say I wholeheartedly agree on this one particular shot. This shot changes the game a lot , from footwork to anticipation , to the amount and direction of spin on the third ball and in my experience it takes quite a while to integrate it into the game. Infact, I have found that sometimes some other flaws tend to get into the game due to this shot if we are not careful. That was the reasoning why I called it "advanced"

I can see what you mean, but that is not how I think of the level of TT I am aspiring to. This flick well done can win the point outright and I used to win the point outright with it and often still do. It is also important vs. a player who attacks backspin too well. It is when used from the forehand side thing get complicated but even in that case, the player just how to think about how it fits into their larger game and practice it accordingly.

NextLevel · Mar 26, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
The only real answer to this, knowing when to get ready to use it is this:

That is not a technical consideration that is about knowing. You are thinking about this the wrong way. It is not like you just go, "oh, hey, now is a good time to use the BH flip," or, "this is the wrong time to use it."

A player who is good at BH flip can use it on any short serve. ANY. When they choose to use it or not is primarily tactical not technical. If you can flip any short serve and your opponent starts seeing you flipping a lot of his serves, then, dropping a short push every so often is tactically quite intelligent.

The only way to get to be able to flip any short ball is to practice, practice, practice. Do serve and receive drills where your training partner is serving short serves anywhere, and any spin. And then when you can read, move to and BH flip any short serve, then you will be able to choose when you want to or not.

But the real question you are actually asking is: how do I get better at reading where serves are going and what spin is on them so I can make a fast and intelligent decision about what return to use. And the only real answer to that is that you have to practice receiving serves A LOT. A LOT. A LOT. And then you have to practice receiving serves even more.

As you are receiving any serve there are always a large variety of ways to return them. Choosing is a split second decision as the ball is on its way to you. Sometimes you are thinking push and then right after the ball bounces on your side you change your mind and decide to flip. Sometimes the exact opposite happens. The more practiced at receiving serves, the larger variety of ways you practice receiving serves, the more time you will feel you have in the space from where the ball bounces on the opponent's side to when you are about to make contact.

In that time between the first bounce and your contact, you get better and faster at making choices about how to receive serves.

But the essential detail is that you have to practice receiving serves A
LOT.

Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

OR just download and buy the TTEdge App!

NextLevel · Mar 26, 2016

One last comment - I probably wouldn't teach the banana flick to someone who doesn't have a decent backhand loop. To me, they are similar shots, though there are chiquita style flicks that are not really loops and are more like swipes.

UpSideDownCarl · Mar 26, 2016

NextLevel said:
OR just download and buy the TTEdge App!

I agree with this. Because the app helps you read where the ball is going faster. [emoji2]

I actually almost mentioned the app myself. But felt I had written enough. Haha.

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UpSideDownCarl · Mar 26, 2016

By the way, what led me to my comment is that Shiro said the technique of doing the flip wasn't the problem and did say:

Shiro said:
...but i am having problems as to when to get ready to use it...

And it really is interesting how, as you train against random placement, over time you just get better at seeing things faster and adjusting to them better.

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Der_Echte · Mar 26, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
I would say the key points have been covered by the Der_Meister. And trust me when I say, Der knows BH flip. He could be called, BHMan if he wasn't called Der_Echte!!! Hahaha.

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It is nice to be called a "Meister" by ur friends or others you don't know... but let's get real. Der_Echte is a upper 1800s rated player whose normal playing level is mid 1900s +/- 75... and I am a joker who is often full of it and posts the wildest stuff imaginable. Anyone can take it for what it is worth what I say and do, but vs someone who is 3 levels better player than me, like Matt, Dan, or anyone at that level or above... you can see the contrast of level and experience. Looking at it that way, Der_Echte is just another Garçon.

What Der_Echte brings to the fight outside a lot of fight, is firsthand perspective of learning as an adult. I was a recreational player who started learning the sport well after I turned 40 yrs old. I have the ability to simplify and explain, relate experiences, and I happen to see the ball better when it is close to me on my BH side.

Carl and Next Level are also extraordinarily qualified in this respect as well. They also have the determination I have to learn and progress.

I do the BH flip very well for someone my level, so I can talk about it with some amount (but let's keep it real, I am not the top level dude anywhere, got lots of confidence and and some authority, but again, everyone keep the right view of my abilities (or lack of top ability) and take what I say and run it through your bullcrap filters before believing and using any of it.

Shiro · Mar 26, 2016

Thanks for the advice guys. i guess i should should practice using this receiving option more, and i will eventually get used to using it on every serve then.

UpSideDownCarl · Mar 26, 2016

Der_Echte said:
It is nice to be called a "Meister" by ur friends or others you don't know... but let's get real.

Der_Echte is the original joker, prankster and entertainer. And in that respect you are a master. Almost every place we've been, you have the ability to make people laugh, have fun and forget their differences. At that Korean club we went to a year and a half ago, seeing you get that Korean lady to make a muscle after she made a good shot, well, everyone in the club was laughing by this time. So I say Der_Meister. Hehe.

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NextLevel · Mar 26, 2016

Shiro said:
Thanks for the advice guys. i guess i should should practice using this receiving option more, and i will eventually get used to using it on every serve then.

For what it is worth this is exactly what a high level coach told me when I complained to him about my consistency with the shot.

Hamasaki_Fanz · Mar 26, 2016

Takkyu_wa_inochi said:
5) against YG serve (= reverse pendulum serve) from right hand player in the BH side, don't do the banana flick, do the normal flick, with a more forward move, and arming the wrist at 6 o'clock. surely its not impossible to do a banana flick, but i think its much more difficult (as for me, i cannot do it consistently against this serve)

chikita against YG can be done by moving sideways just like your explanation on point (4). Gucchi from World Rubber Market did a video on this. You can find it on youtube.

Ilia Minkin · Mar 26, 2016

NextLevel said:
Shiro said:

Thanks for the advice guys. i guess i should should practice using this receiving option more, and i will eventually get used to using it on every serve then.

Click to expand...

For what it is worth this is exactly what a high level coach told me when I complained to him about my consistency with the shot.

I'm starting to think more and more that it the best answer to many table tennis questions.

UpSideDownCarl · Mar 26, 2016

Der_Echte said:
Der_Echte is a upper 1800s rated player whose normal playing level is mid 1900s +/- 75...

Hey Der_, NL, check out who I hung out with and trained with for 3.5 hours today:

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Der_Echte · Mar 26, 2016

Ask Ming if he would like a Nexy CONTRAST jersey. I know he likes Nexy, but doesn't like regular polo shirts. He says sleeves interfere with his arm motion on shots.

I put a public offer out to Ming that he can get one of our CONTRAST jerseys half price, and I will pay a Chinese seamstress the $10 cost it will take to cut off the sleeves and part of shoulder and sew in a hem. I think that would be a nice mod. Isn't doing MODs the cool thing to do these days?

Can we get Ming to register and post here? Half the forum knows him anywayz.

UpSideDownCarl · Mar 26, 2016

Hahaha. I'll give Ming the message. That will look awesome.

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NextLevel · Mar 26, 2016

Ilia Minkin said:
I'm starting to think more and more that it the best answer to many table tennis questions.

When your technique is sound, yes. But the technique had to be sound. Maybe one day, I will post my rules for sound technique but of course, I am only me.

NextLevel · Mar 26, 2016

It's also true when the technique is not sound but the,personal ability to compensate for unsound technique is higher and may prevent progress at a certain point.

darnner123 · Mar 27, 2016

uhm i dont really know how to answer ur question
u just do it
like hit it when its at its peak of the bounce lol

How to perfect your timing on the backhand banana flip receive?

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