"Corkscrew" vs side top loop

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Here are my thoughts on the term corkscrew.

First off, NextLevel has given such good information that the information was worth it.

Second off, our only disagreement is a semantic one. If we are just using the word to mean slightly different things, I am not going to worry about it.

But here is how I would parse things out myself.

A vertical axis is one kind of side spin. It is rare for this to occur in a pure form in table tennis just as it is rare to have any axis of spin be geometrically squared to 90 degrees in any plane. A front to back axis is also a side spin and the effects of this kind of sidespin are very different from the vertical axis version.

In the flight of a ball, there is only one axis of spin and it can be at any angle.

A loop with sidespin will curve and dip. Regardless of which version of sidespin or what the exact angle of axis is, a loop with sidespin will curve and dip (in referring to a ball curving down I usually use the ter: arc). Most loops with sidespin will curve to some extent and also kick to the side to some extent.

For me to consider the term corkscrew as a useful term, it would have to be close enough to that front to back axis to display the major characteristics of that axis of spin. And if it displayed those characteristics I wouldn't consider the shot a loop because part of the characteristics of the forward to back axis of spin is that the spin will not pull it up or down, and the spin will not cause the ball to curve in the air much. The arc on this kind of ball is caused by gravity not the Magnus effect. So the main feature of this shot would be that the ball would fly fairly straight and kick to the side in an exaggerated manner. The video with the lob that really kicks to the side, that is what I would call a corkscrew ball.

But a loop that curves a bit, arcs and kicks to the side a bit....I would just call that a loop or a sidespin loop.

Further characteristics of a corkscrew ball: the term spin avoidance has been used. And I know that NextLevel knows what he means by spin avoidance. But I get the sense that Archo may not entirely understand it.

On a backspin ball, contact on the side of the ball, near either point of the axis of spin, would be useful spin avoidance. On a sidespin loop that has a lot of curve, spin avoidance would mean covering the topspin enough while hitting the INSIDE of the ball for a fade shot. Because that is the easier side of the axis to get your racket on.

Often when someone hooks to me, instead of spin avoidance I go right to where the spin is strongest and hook back the incoming hook which actually gets me massive hook. When I do this shot I will direct the ball towards the BH side but it will still end up leaving the FH side of the table before the end-line.

What am I trying to say: spin avoidance obviously ends up relying on a fairly accurate read of spin.

Spin avoidance for a true corkscrew, that would be to just contact the back of the ball. But if you misread corkscrew and read it as the other kind of side spin or as topspin you are going to be in a world of trouble.

If you misread a corkscrew as a sidespin loop and try to do a fade loop and are compensating for side and top, and trying for spin avoidance, your ball will go straight down as if the ball was massive backspin. This is because of the fact that the inside of the ball on a corkscrew ball IS ACTUALLY heavy backspin. Now, to that same ball that I will often just go right at the sidespin, the outside of the ball will be pure top. And the ball will go straight up.

As I understand the kind of spin I am talking about, the main value of it would be in serving. If you can do a good corkscrew serve, and a good regular sidespin serve and make them look somewhat similar, if you mix these well, you can drive your opponent crazy. If you give him the corkscrew serve and he reads it as the other side, and touches the the inside of the spin for spin avoidance, the ball will go straight down because that is the backspin side. If he starts reading the ball as corkscrew and then you switch it to the other side/top, the ball will shoot up and to the side because it was the other kind of side/top. But the corkscrew really bounces like a topspin ball. And the kick to the side at the pace of a serve really looks like curve in the air. So, the few people who can make a REAL corkscrew serve have a real powerful weapon as long as their opponent is high enough level to read it as side top. [emoji2]

Michael Landers taught me all that I just explained when he taught me his corkscrew serve.

That corkscrew serve, when I use it against my sister who is maybe 1100, she has no trouble returning it if she can adjust to the lateral curve and put her racket on the ball.

But serving that same serve to a guy who is 2500-2600, after he missed the second one, I asked if he knew what spin it was. He acted like it was a stupid question and said it was side top. And I just said, "okay." Two more and he figured it out and asked how come I could do that. [emoji2]


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

There are a couple of things I think you are missing.

First of all, corkscrew makes the ball dip just like topspin. It gives the ball a tight arc just like topspin does (see American football, with its relatively low level of spin). The main difference is that Topspin propels the ball forward while corkscrew propels the ball forward in the direction of the rotation. There is also a linear force applied to the ball from the force of the racket contact this is why you can't get pure corkscrew (the spin is perfectly out of sync with the direction of the motion). You can get pure topspin, sidespin and backspin. Why you don't believe pure sidespin is not possible, I am not sure, but in my mind, it clearly is.

Sidespin makes the ball curve in the air. Sidespin, however, does not make the ball dip. Look at the killerspin video for the difference between corkscrew (deviation) and sidespin (lateral) spin. People often fail to distinguish between the two. You seem to consider both sidespin but the first is horizontal axis, the second is vertical axis.

The reason why you can get deceptive with corkscrew on serves is because the spin effect is higher and the ball speed is lower. IT has far less to do with the nature of the spin than you think it does.
 
says what [IMG]
Your story reminds me of how I learned all kinds of fancy serves, but got worse results because people at my level can't read serves anyway unless they've been talking to me and training with me, so they did a pretty decent job at returning more "advanced" spins without huge problems.

Meanwhile, the simple spins like a lot of topspin that's very evident or a lot of backspin that's very evident is what brings the trouble. It's pretty funny, because serving a very obvious serve to a higher level player will just get it killed if he's not feeling nice. ;)

Also, Carl, scroll up. Anything screwed up with my swing?


@NextLevel

My thoughts as well.

Corkscrew is basically just a "topspin" to the side. There is a counteracting force that is "backspin", but to my physics understanding, the reason the ball does not float and instead dips is because there is no air being pushed directly into the spin axis, like with a backspin. The pressure zones are different.

At the same time, it won't dip as hard as topspin, I believe. Because the topspin has different areas of pressure due to the air being pushed into the ball, but that's not there with a corkscrew.


It's really simple and I think NL has the right idea. It only matters what direction the ball is spinning relative to where it's travelling.

I am probably wrong in some things, but I have done quite a lot of work in aerodynamics and vehicular engineering. So the idea of aerodynamically generated pressure zones is not exactly alien.
 
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If you can't make a brushing loop stroke with very little sidespin, there's an issue. At the seemiller training clinic I went to he was all about, SPIN SPIN SPIN. But he also wanted it to be as pure of a topspin as possible. Once you're able to consistently do JUST TOP spin without the side. THEN you should work on applying the side with it.

Sure you can skip this step and get to having a more sidespin loop naturally and never having a straight topspin, but you'll lack the knowledge you should have gained along the way. The way my wrist is "cocked downward" I naturally had a lot of sidespin on my strokes and it was rough trying to get rid of it.

One of the comments carl made when hitting with me was that he was suprised how little I was hooking the ball even though my wrist was cocked the way it was.



I believe, in my opinion, if you're trying to move from a less flat to a more brushing stroke, you shouldn't be having sidespin with your brush stroke quite yet. Work on consistency one step at a time. If you can't get rid of the side, there will be issues in the long run.

We've read nextlevel talk about how getting the sidespin is a higher level stroke and it makes things easier to attack at times. But I can guarantee at his level he's ALSO able to produce a stroke WITHOUT the sidespin.


edit: I'm not going to comment on strokes like the video you posted, because what I believe is correct is different than most players. So anything I say about your mirror stroke you can just ignore. If I were to say something about it, which I urge you ignore since most players will disagree, is that you don't lose sight of your paddle. it goes behind your back, sight is lost.
 
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says what [IMG]
When I'm practicing my "normal shot", and it goes into the net, it's pretty much "pure" topspin. My "spinny loop" is also "pure" topspin.

The way I used to contact, sometimes I accidentally produced sidespin. Now with the form shown in the video a page back, I can produce sidespin and topspin, reliably.

It's not that I never knew how to produce spin, except maybe a big hook shot. I'm just working on actually spinning more.

Normally, I will loop with little sidespin unless I'm deliberately doing it. All my shots have some kind of corkscrew to them, though, but I don't think it's excessive unless I exaggerate it.
 
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If you can't make a brushing loop stroke with very little sidespin, there's an issue. At the seemiller training clinic I went to he was all about, SPIN SPIN SPIN. But he also wanted it to be as pure of a topspin as possible. Once you're able to consistently do JUST TOP spin without the side. THEN you should work on applying the side with it.

Sure you can skip this step and get to having a more sidespin loop naturally and never having a straight topspin, but you'll lack the knowledge you should have gained along the way. The way my wrist is "cocked downward" I naturally had a lot of sidespin on my strokes and it was rough trying to get rid of it.

One of the comments carl made when hitting with me was that he was suprised how little I was hooking the ball even though my wrist was cocked the way it was.



I believe, in my opinion, if you're trying to move from a less flat to a more brushing stroke, you shouldn't be having sidespin with your brush stroke quite yet. Work on consistency one step at a time. If you can't get rid of the side, there will be issues in the long run.

We've read nextlevel talk about how getting the sidespin is a higher level stroke and it makes things easier to attack at times. But I can guarantee at his level he's ALSO able to produce a stroke WITHOUT the sidespin.

Shuki, these things are sometimes semantics. I posted two videos on the thread in a post, one with my corkscrew demo and the other with two higher level players. Are those two players hitting top or cork? Either is right, depending on what you are focusing on.

Danny Seemiller Sr once said that a good loop should contain 15% sidespin. Huh? I am very sure he meant deviation/cork spin and not lateral/sidespin, but who cares?

What some people do is hook the ball in a way that creates blocking inconsistencies - you can't even pretend to treat their ball like topspin.

But for reasons I have already mentioned, you can treat a corkscrew ball largely like topspin. IT's just a different spin axis. Hooking sidespin is not the same as corkscrew sidespin. The people who get hooking sidespin tend to stroke the ball on the side and push forward. Those who get cork hit the ball on the side and come over the top. Different motions produce different results.
 
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Shuki, these things are sometimes semantics. I posted two videos on the thread in a post, one with my corkscrew demo and the other with two higher level players. Are those two players hitting top or cork? Either is right, depending on what you are focusing on.

Danny Seemiller Sr once said that a good loop should contain 15% sidespin. Huh? I am very sure he meant deviation/cork spin and not lateral/sidespin, but who cares?

What some people do is hook the ball in a way that creates blocking inconsistencies - you can't even pretend to treat their ball like topspin.

But for reasons I have already mentioned, you can treat a corkscrew ball largely like topspin. IT's just a different spin axis. Hooking sidespin is not the same as corkscrew sidespin. The people who get hooking sidespin tend to stroke the ball on the side and push forward. Those who get cork hit the ball on the side and come over the top. Different motions produce different results.

I'm talking about development. He wants as pure of topspin as possible for development. 100% topspin if possible. Looking for the notes packet he gave me at his clinic, I'll post a picture as soon as I can find it.


edit:
me: still have your seemiller notes packet? from our clinic?
other person that went: Yea
me: can you send a picture of the part that says to make it as pure of a topspin as you can while developing before moving on to any sidespin
me: or that whole page actually
him: yea later


or that whole page



 
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says what [IMG]
In my lowly opinion, I don't think you can really say that a good loop has this or that % of sidespin on it. It depends on the application and the play style. But I understand what Seemiller means.

On the topic of producing hook: How exactly are you supposed to come across the side of the ball enough to really hook it, and still have a good follow through? Is it about when you contact the ball, or just where?

If I contact it on the side with my vertical motion, I just get cork. If I want a hook, do I change my motion?

Fades I understand. They're my go to 3rd ball kill, and the simplest sidespin IMO.
 
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We've read nextlevel talk about how getting the sidespin is a higher level stroke and it makes things easier to attack at times. But I can guarantee at his level he's ALSO able to produce a stroke WITHOUT the sidespin.

.
IT's all about tradeoffs. The problem with pure topspin contact is where you make it and how to produce it when dealing with incoming heavy spin already on the ball. It's all semantics anyway. I just hope the posts are helping anyone understand spin avoidance.
 
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I'm talking about development. He wants as pure of topspin as possible for development. 100% topspin if possible. Looking for the notes packet he gave me at his clinic, I'll post a picture as soon as I can find it.


edit:
me: still have your seemiller notes packet? from our clinic?
other person that went: Yea
me: can you send a picture of the part that says to make it as pure of a topspin as you can while developing before moving on to any sidespin
me: or that whole page actually
him: yea later


or that whole page




He gave that clinic in Philly once. Here's my take.

I know people who hook the ball. IT's all about their stroke. You don't want your base stroke to be a hook.

But a hook is not a corkscrew.
 
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He gave that clinic in Philly once. Here's my take.

I know people who hook the ball. IT's all about their stroke. You don't want your base stroke to be a hook.

But a hook is not a corkscrew.

regardless of hook vs corkscrew, you think a player going from more of a flat hit should initially be trying to do some sort of sidespin on the ball when they start going for more of a grazing stroke?
 
says what [IMG]
I play a guy who chops the ball pretty heavily, for my level. It's probably not that much spin, but it's enough to make it go into the net if you don't take care.

Against him, I like to contact with a brush stroke just a bit to the side, with the bat yawed a bit. The success rate for such a shot is high and the spin is great. Meanwhile, if I go and "pure" topspin it, it'll more likely go into the net. So I think there spin avoidance is helping me.

At the same time, I like to take half long, not so spinny shots with a very brushing contact along the back of the ball with "pure" topspin, because I can achieve it due to there not being much spin to avoid. A variation would probably complicate things.

Also, I lied at one point. I forgot that my penhold short brush loop has a lot of hook if I want. Meanwhile I find fading easier with shakehand, but hooks are just impractical for me.

Shuki, I can produce spin. I am incorporating more spin into my game: deliberately spinning more. I'm trying to stick to as pure topspin as I can when practicing my shot, for simplicity sake, but I can handle sidespins easily and can use them to draw people out and get them to return where I want.

At the same time, I've done a lot more serve practice than most people at my level bother to do. So it might have something to do with it.
 
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regardless of hook vs corkscrew, you think a player going from more of a flat hit should initially be trying to do some sort of sidespin on the ball when they start going for more of a grazing stroke?

They should be trying to make the ball go to their target. They should be trying to produce a ball they can reliable read. How they produce that ball is up to them. IT's more likely to be pure topspin because they will not be facing heavy spin when starting out and that need to be able to aim the ball first.
 
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Corkscrew : Spin axis is horizontal and the direction of spin is not aligned to to direction of the translation motion . The magnus effect will be different and it will more likely move like a Shane Warne Legspin in cricket. ( even though the effect in cricket is magnified by the difference in friction between the two sides )

Here is a video, apologies for the inferior quality


Side spin is where the spin axis is more vertical and the spin is in the direction of the motion so there is no "dip" from the spin but from gravity and it swerves in the air .


Is my understanding correct, guys ?
 
says what [IMG]
Why do people keep misusing vertical? Or do I not get something?

A sidespin spins along the horizontal axis of the ground, right? A topspin spins along the vertical axis of the ground.

Vertical = up and down
Horizontal = left and right

I am taking the reference from the ground. Perhaps you are taking it from somewhere else.
 
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They should be trying to make the ball go to their target. They should be trying to produce a ball they can reliable read. How they produce that ball is up to them. IT's more likely to be pure topspin because they will not be facing heavy spin when starting out and that need to be able to aim the ball first.

I think this is a style disagreement we're having more than anything. When I used to have more sidespin on the ball I was unable to make it more pure. What I found was the reason I had this sidespin was because it was simply easier for me to get the ball on the table against backspin. It was inhibiting me from developing proper footwork and proper rotation.

I couldn't understand for the life of me why my coach and danny also wanted me to have a pure topspin. I couldn't do it as consistently and it frustrated me to do a stroke I couldn't do at the time. But then as my stroke became "more correct" using more knees and body rotation it became quite clear to me that there was no amount of backspin that I couldn't loop with even a pure topspin stroke.

Now that training the pure topspin has given me better footwork and fundamentals, my coach has been having me add sidespin to my strokes for variation, not for ease of returning a ball to the table any easier.
 
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Why do people keep misusing vertical? Or do I not get something?

A sidespin spins along the horizontal axis of the ground, right? A topspin spins along the vertical axis of the ground.

Vertical = up and down
Horizontal = left and right

I am taking the reference from the ground. Perhaps you are taking it from somewhere else.


some people think of a vertical string going through the ball and the ball spinning on the string while you and I think of it as spinning along a line
 
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says what [IMG]
I can also loop backspin with a pure topspin stroke. If I really want to spin it, that's what I'll go to. As long as the tangential speed of your racket is higher than the backspin's speed, it'll go onto the table. So brush fast.

I brought it up because I noticed the phenomena of backspin and topspin being easier to counter with a different contact.

Also, that makes sense. Never thought that people would reference it from the ball. I think it's better to take the direction of travel into account.
 
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