DISCUSSION: Will ITTF switch back to celluloid balls if plastic balls failed?

They will not roll it back man ! These points have been raised repeatedly by pro and recreational players alike but ITTF is deaf !

The ITTF would never admit to a mistake, so your first point was on the money IMO. The whole sport'd be a whole lot different if they could.

SilentRain, a question: How is it possible for rallies to be worse, shorter and more boring and still be more viewer-friendly? And you do say "it certainly makes the sport more viewer friendly."

These are my opinions. There are more longer and more dramatic rallies in pro matches. NOT FEWER.

However, here are the main reasons I still don't like the plastic ball!!!!!

The speed and spin, to me are not an issue.

The quality and durability of the balls, however, ARE A HUGE ISSUE.

Never before has there been such a dramatic divergence in playing characteristics between different brands of 3 star balls. If you are used to playing with one kind of plastic ball, any of the others take some getting used to. And all of them, even the more durable ones, break too easily.

If the companies can't get their act together and make 3 star balls that are decent, consistent quality and where the playing characteristics are not so drastically different, I think that is a big problem. I won't even mention what kind of garbage the non-3-Star Plastic balls are.

In the 40mm Celluloid era, a 2 star, a one star, a training ball, they were usually acceptable even if not as good as a 3 star.

These days only some of the balls are even remotely acceptable. And in the 3 Star balls, even the brand and kind that are good, you find more eggs than you should.

If you are used to playing with a seamless, a Nittaku P will take some time to get used to. Same the other way. And same from either of these to the Butterfly G ball. None of the other balls are worth considering for anything but landfill.

So, even though, I believe the 40+ Poly Ball has led to a few more amazing rallies, the problems it has caused that the inconsistency between brands and the durability being so bad makes it, thus far, A BIG FAT FAILURE.

By the way, for reference, two rallies that stand out that would not have happened with the Celluloid ball are the famous and amazing rally by Fang Bo and Ma Long in the WTTC Finals, and that rally between Xu Xin and some little guy I can't remember in the China Super League where they both go around the net over and over and moving each other all over the court. When the first rally happened, ITTF called it the best rally of the century! Later in the year, when that second rally occurred, it was so spectacular, ITTF called it the best rally in history or something.

If they could get a 40+ sized ball that was more consistent and more durable, and the different companies were not using such divergent materials and ball making processes, or if they made a celluloid 40+, I think the size change might be useful.

But changing anything about the ball will always, only favor the players who train the most and train the best. So I actually don't think ITTF thought this ball change would help other countries or hinder China.

I think the real reason for the ball change was Adham Sharara wanting to line his pockets. Because originally the ball change was supposed to be only the seamless ball. And that was set in motion directly after the ink was drying on the contract that gave XSF exclusive rights to the seamless P ball process and also gave Sharara a percentage of the profits for every ball sold.

But the other companies fought that in court and won. [FYI that would have constituted a MONOPOLY]. So Sharara had to let the other companies try to make seamed balls that were ITTF Approved as well. That was also right before he stepped down as president.

So, you do the math.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

We can only hope that the rest of the manufacturers improve their balls & attempt to replicate the
characteristics of the celluloid ball.

We agree on many things. And I like a lot of what you have said. However, on the quality of rallies in pro matches, we can agree to disagree.

I feel I see more of the higher quality rallies than I used to. But I am okay with you feeling the opposite.

I also feel that serve receive has become a bigger factor and the serve itself is a slightly smaller factor in the rallies.

One thing I will point out is that, for players who like to fish or lob and play defense like Mizutani, the plastic ball has had an immediate positive impact on play level and ranking. He was fading and had dropped out of the top 10 right before the official change to the 40+ Poly ball. And within a few tournaments of the institution of the Poly ball he jumped right up to top 6 and has been there pretty much the whole time since.

It is even hard for the top 4 CNT players to put the ball past him which definitely makes for longer and more dramatic rallies. Look what happened in Mizutani v ZJK in WTTC!

That was the match where ZJK injured his shoulder. ZJK was up 3-0. He lost the 4th game. He was up 10-6 in the 5th and Mizutani got it to deuce. And you could tell that if ZJK lost that 5th game he probably would have lost the match because his shoulder was getting worse after every one of those long, hard fought rallies and he could not put the ball past Mizutani.

Mizutani was a big factor in that match and the entire WTTC. Without that shoulder injury for ZJK, who knows what would have happened in that WTTC.

But if the only point we truly disagree on is the quality of the rallies at the highest levels of play, then I don't think that is a big deal.

For historical information, you should know, they did try to make TT balls out of plastic in the 1940s or 50s and failed completely because they were too easy to break back then.

I am okay with hoping that they give up the idea and go to a 40+ Celluloid ball or even back to the old 40mm celluloid balls instead.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Archosaurus said:

The ITTF would never admit to a mistake, so your first point was on the money IMO. The whole sport'd be a whole lot different if they could.

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What I think also.

I don't think they are going to change because plastic balls are cheaper to manufacture and I think some of them are like inflammable or something (not too sure)

non-inflammable is what they claimed but both of them are inflammable , celluloid and plastic and I don't think the plastic is recyclable either

darnner123 said:

I don't think they are going to change because plastic balls are cheaper to manufacture and I think some of them are like inflammable or something (not too sure)

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One thing I would say is, even though either will burn, the amount of flammability of celluloid is exponentially greater than that of the plastic material in any of the Poly balls.

Here, for educational purposes:


That would not happen with that same container filled with Poly balls.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

uhm im pretty sure it would still burn
DHS 40+ 3 star poly balls are made up of cellulose acetate which is highly flammable

I think this pretty much contains what we are discussing ..

http://www.vintagepens.com/FAQmfr/celluloid.shtml

ttmonster said:

I think this pretty much contains what we are discussing ..

http://www.vintagepens.com/FAQmfr/celluloid.shtml

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ye thats a good one
people should do some research themselves anyways
its not hard to find the answers

If the plastic balls are deemed a fail and ITTF stops approving them, then ITTF would already have a plan for an even more expensive composite material and a contract with some big outfit.

imho there is no way to roll back to celluloid
in a few ears i think manufactrurers will make good balls at same level with celluloid

SilentRain said:

....With the exception of certain few examples you pointed out, i find the rallies to be generally more boring now RELATIVE to the old ball. Lets face it, when you compare something, it has to be the average and not one or 2 outliers that might skewer the findings. In this aspect, my friends and I find that rallies with new balls are more likely than not, boring, end fast and usually end with error rather than outright winning. Emphasis on the word RELATIVE....

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Sorry but I have to disagree.
I'm not sure if this here really can be taken as a reference for the improvement of rallies since the usage of the p-ball. But I mean just take look at these two vids and decide for yourself.


C-Ball


P-Ball

My opinion:
Will ITTF switch back to celluloid balls if plastic balls failed?
--> No. Plastic balls won't "fail".

Sorry Sugo D, but wtf happens in the last video (especially second part, after ADs)? When pro players are consistently unable to win a point by smashing these high balls - that means that table tennis has completely failed.

It is especially boring and even pitfully to watch games at pro level in which helpless players deal with slowly flying ball.

My opinion:
Will ITTF switch back to celluloid balls if plastic balls failed?
--> Yes. Plastic balls failed. Further 1-2 years of such game points in addition to all other disadvantages of the current ball will make it clear for casual spectator. It's a matter of time.

With the help of internet media and combined efforts of pro players with spectators the date of switching back to celluloid balls can be made sooner. But most likely new celluloid balls will have some properties tuned as well.

The ITTF never fails!

Signed,

ITTF


p.s. While the ITTF never fails, others fail the ITTF.