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    1. Top | #1
      Archosaurus is offline
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      Loop contact sound

      Hello.

      I know that a very wood-y slap sound is definitely not what you want when looping, but I've been wondering if less is more when it comes to spin.

      Looking at professional players play, they very often make a sound I would describe as "medium", the normal kind of hitting sound. Yet they have a lot of spin. Take this video for example, at 26 and 27 seconds. The first shot is a forehand loop, the second a backhand. Notice the dramatic difference between the sound.



      Now, the backhand did go into the net, so perhaps nearly no sound doesn't indicate a very grazing contact but instead a bad contact outside of the sweet spot. That would conflict with my experience, because I've seen some really great spin being generated when the contact sound is seemingly nonexistant, and there is less spin when the noise is sharper and louder.

      Is this sound a product of boosted high end rubber? Do you want a solid contact with sponge or a very, very grazing contact for spin? Is the sound dependent on the rubber?

      Theory says that you should sink the ball into the sponge somewhat to spin it, but experience suggests otherwise.

      Thanks.

    2. Top | #2
      Ilia Minkin is offline
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      Take this video for example, at 26 and 27 seconds.
      I think that the second shot is non-representative because the timing was totally off, not just the hitting spot.

    3. Top | #3
      Archosaurus is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ilia Minkin View Post
      I think that the second shot is non-representative because the timing was totally off, not just the hitting spot.
      That's true. It's hard to find a good example of what I mean. I think Timo Boll quite often loops how I describe it, with a soft nearly nonexistent sound.

      All I know is, it at least appears to increase spin, but it's tremendously harder.

      EDIT: Here is one from Pingskills. It's quiet enough, and it's a brush loop so it's bound to be spinny.

      At about 1:40.




      Does more racket head speed = more sound? Or is it always a byproduct of forward impact?
      Last edited by Archosaurus; 04-08-2016 at 08:17 PM.

    4. Top | #4
      izra is offline
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      there are two different kinds of "noise" when hitting the ball. one is the sound when the ball hits the bat directly and you can hear the ball hitting the blade through the rubber. this is the kind of sound you want to avoid if you want to make a high spin shot. then there is the "crack" that is actually produced by the rubber when you make a shot that is very high in both spin and speed. to get the crack you have to 1) achieve very high bat speed 2) hit the ball at an angle 3) dig into the sponge.

      the "crack" or the "click" was very common and easily achieved in speed glue days. today it's easier to get it with some softer rubber tensors. i don't tune so i'm not sure about that but i'm guessing tuning a rubber also makes the crack easier to achieve.

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    6. Top | #5
      mquevedof is offline
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      I would describe a good contact as a high pitch, somewhat dampened if you use a wood blade... probably more towards the click sound described by izra.

      The crack to me is when the ball sinks way down, and the ball contact the blade itself, does not necessarily mean the crack is the absence of spin, but a faster forward motion...

      Hard to describe...


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    8. Top | #6
      Archosaurus is offline
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      It's probably just perception, then. I've noticed that the best shots I've done are like this:


      Is this the sound you're talking about?

      I wasn't entirely sure if it was just the rubber + sponge making this sound, or the wood, so I was trying to avoid it. I always had assumed that it had high speed AND high spin because people kept blocking these with the ball flying directly up nearly 90 degrees, but I wasn't convinced. Loopkilling like this was too easy, but I might just have been doing it right.

      The silent brush loop is spinnier, correct? But a very rough sounding snappy contact still has adequate spin but the added benefit of loopkill pace?

    9. Top | #7
      Shuki is offline
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      70% contact, 30% spin for chinese forehand. lots of sound for high speed stroke.

      my coach wouldn't call these forehand's a loop, she calls them "shot".
      Last edited by Shuki; 04-08-2016 at 10:50 PM.

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    11. Top | #8
      Archosaurus is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Shuki View Post
      70% contact, 30% spin for chinese forehand. lots of sound for high speed stroke.

      my coach wouldn't call these forehand's a loop, she calls them "shot".
      So they're far less spinnier than a brush loop, and more akin to a drive, or is the topspin still very high but not quite as high?

    12. Top | #9
      Shuki is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus View Post
      So they're far less spinnier than a brush loop, and more akin to a drive, or is the topspin still very high but not quite as high?
      not a lot of topspin on the forehand stroke he's doing. I'm sure there's videos of him brush looping out there too. returning a ball thats fast but more flat is harder to do than a fast ball with lots of spin.

      It's harder to hit a flat shot against heavy spin though, what he's doing is very difficult compared to a brush loop.

    13. Top | #10
      Archosaurus is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Shuki View Post
      not a lot of topspin on the forehand stroke he's doing. I'm sure there's videos of him brush looping out there too. returning a ball thats fast but more flat is harder to do than a fast ball with lots of spin.

      It's harder to hit a flat shot against heavy spin though, what he's doing is very difficult compared to a brush loop.
      Strange. I've found fast, spinny shots harder to return than completely flat fast shots. The shot comes in fast, and rebounds off the table even faster. Shouldn't that be overall more difficult to counter? Isn't that the reason why the Chinese play with a speed bias?

      I've also found it far easier to kill a spinny shot with quality, than to brush it with quality. Then again I have far more practice killing shots than brushing them excessively, so perhaps it's personal preference. You have mentioned that you always like to brush the ball and it's even got you into problems with technique. I'm a bit of the opposite in that regard.

      That's why I want to learn a very, very soft contact, though. The kind where you barely make any sound. I think the Chinese elite players are brushing more than we think, even with their high speed "shots".

    14. Top | #11
      Shuki is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus View Post
      Strange. I've found fast, spinny shots harder to return than completely flat fast shots. The shot comes in fast, and rebounds off the table even faster. Shouldn't that be overall more difficult to counter? Isn't that the reason why the Chinese play with a speed bias?

      I've also found it far easier to kill a spinny shot with quality, than to brush it with quality. Then again I have far more practice killing shots than brushing them excessively, so perhaps it's personal preference. You have mentioned that you always like to brush the ball and it's even got you into problems with technique. I'm a bit of the opposite in that regard.

      That's why I want to learn a very, very soft contact, though. The kind where you barely make any sound. I think the Chinese elite players are brushing more than we think, even with their high speed "shots".
      At high level this changes, especially with the modern ball. There's no such thing as a ball so spinny that you can be confident in it not coming back.

      I haven't played a ball with enough spin to scare me, but I've played flat shots that I can't get an angle on. If you're close to the table, and they hit a flat fast shot at you, it's probably hitting right near the edge. you don't have time to back up and go through the ball with some enough brush to take out all their emptiness. What angle would you get your racket at to get a flat ball over the net? if they spin the ball you judge the spin and then you can make light/soft brushing contact and always get it on. with a flat shot you have no angle to get right and then make a brushing soft brushing contact.

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    16. Top | #12
      Ilia Minkin is offline
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      Listen to the sound of contact on Yan An's shots:


      When somebody in a club hits a shot like that there is often a local "expert" lamenting "Spin the ball!!111" with a pissed-off intonation.

      Strange. I've found fast, spinny shots harder to return than completely flat fast shots. The shot comes in fast, and rebounds off the table even faster.
      That is true if you're in position to get that shot back. But if the ball is placed well, you have less time to move and react.

      not a lot of topspin on the forehand stroke he's doing.
      Can you measure the spin with your eyes? Even though the sound is high, he brushes the ball pretty hard.
      Last edited by Ilia Minkin; 04-08-2016 at 11:16 PM.

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    18. Top | #13
      izra is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus View Post
      Is this the sound you're talking about?

      I wasn't entirely sure if it was just the rubber + sponge making this sound, or the wood, so I was trying to avoid it. I always had assumed that it had high speed AND high spin because people kept blocking these with the ball flying directly up nearly 90 degrees, but I wasn't convinced. Loopkilling like this was too easy, but I might just have been doing it right.

      The silent brush loop is spinnier, correct? But a very rough sounding snappy contact still has adequate spin but the added benefit of loopkill pace?
      yes, that would be it. the real test of your skill comes when the ball is low and has a lot of backspin.

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    20. Top | #14
      Shuki is offline
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      I said 30% brush. surely that's a lot of spin still is at this high of a level compared to us mortals going for all out brush. But with the speed of the ball in compared to the spin makes it feel like a flat shot.

    21. Top | #15
      Archosaurus is offline
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      I am by no means a high level player, but I find it very easy to generate a very fast shot with a lot of arc, like Yan An is doing. I can't imagine landing a shot with that kind of pace if I don't spin it a lot, and a high brush soft shot is very easy and feels more like a block compared to that.

      More so, I'm trying to find out if I can brush it even more and use my maximum speed to spin more than hit. Now I feel like I'm about 50/50 for speed/spin, but perhaps more of a spin bias without it being a slow brush loop is possible. Thus the contact harshness question.

      Also, if I hit the ball into the net with my strong loop, even if the contact feels harsh, there's quite a lot of spin. It'll bounce a bit up and down the net and keep rolling.

      If I miss my brush loop, it'll hop a bit more due to less pace, and I think there might be a little more spin but the difference is not exactly huge as you might think.
      Last edited by Archosaurus; 04-08-2016 at 11:30 PM.

    22. Top | #16
      izra is offline
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      if it's a finishing shot i wouldn't worry about the spin as long as you are consistently hitting the table.

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    24. Top | #17
      Archosaurus is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by izra View Post
      if it's a finishing shot i wouldn't worry about the spin as long as you are consistently hitting the table.
      That is what I think too.

      On the topic of a rallying shot though, like when you're looping someone's blocks and counterloops, would you want a softer contact and sound while still keeping good pace, or go with more pace and what feels and sounds like a harsher contact?


      A part of me thinks the latter has both more speed AND more spin.

      Also, neither is a lot more consistent unless I'm under a lot of pressure, but then I won't be playing aggressive shots anyway, I'm not that good.
      Last edited by Archosaurus; 04-08-2016 at 11:33 PM.

    25. Top | #18
      izra is offline
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      simply ask yourself "why?", how would you benefit from doing something differently? if it would get your consistency up and maybe help your recovery, sure. if you are already consistent and able to recover then why?

      however, when looking at such things you have to consider at least 1 level higher than yours. maybe you are able to easily put away shots from opponents at your level, but how about when someone better comes along?

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    27. Top | #19
      Archosaurus is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by izra View Post
      simply ask yourself "why?", how would you benefit from doing something differently? if it would get your consistency up and maybe help your recovery, sure. if you are already consistent and able to recover then why?

      however, when looking at such things you have to consider at least 1 level higher than yours. maybe you are able to easily put away shots from opponents at your level, but how about when someone better comes along?
      Yes, exactly. I'm taking about what is effective and a good strategy vs better and better players. There has to be some kind of meta that we will end up with. Maybe I will need to spin more to pressure high level players, when only speed is not enough.

      I am wondering if this harsh contact only works up to a certain level, then you need to start playing slower and brushier. It doesn't seem like it though, the trend I see is that people hit harder and harder with a bigger sound as they go up the level. They can't possibly be taking away spin for speed, so it has to be an increase in both.

    28. Top | #20
      izra is offline
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      on the pro level an aggressive shot that is only high in spin cannot be it's own purpose, unless it's part of a tactic when you are playing a defender. pros use slow arc loops only when the ball has dropped too low or when they're not in the perfect position. have you seen the german national championship final? baum used a lot of aggressive pushes to make mengel perform a slow arc loop that he could punish.

      anything other than the highest pro level: we have to use slow arc openers very often to set up points.

      a slow spinny loop is the bread and butter of learning a good loop though, so even if you don't see much of those in a fan zhen dong vs ma long game it's not like you can skip it altogether.
      Last edited by izra; 04-09-2016 at 12:00 AM.

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