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  1. Archosaurus is offline
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    #1

    Looping slow no spin balls

    Hello.

    So I've gone away from my flat hitting tendency and I think I can quite solidly play with a very high spin/speed ratio now. The sound is more of a pop instead of a crack, and I get what Carl has been talking about with spinning the ball. A lot of people not used to the spin are giving up when they think a shot's gonna go off the end, and it arcs back down sharply to surprise them. Not high level by any means, but a welcome improvement and I think I can get somewhere with this.

    Although now I'm running into the last slow loop problem until I can consider having a decent loop: no spin without a lot of pace.

    If someone blocks a medium/high pace ball at me without a lot of spin, I can spin it because the impact seems to give me more friction from it digging in. I can even counterloop people's topspin easily and relatively heavy backspin is tremendously easy compared to a slow no spin.

    I CAN spin a slow no spin ball, but not too much. There's no spin or pace to make the ball dig in, and although I'm brushing it enough that I've even barely missed a few shots and just grazed it, I can't get heavy spin on it without throwing it off the end.

    If I adjust my racket angle and do more of a loop drive, coming over the ball and pulling past it, I get decent spin with good pace, but if possible I'd really like how to slow loop it just so I know how.

    Is visibly lower spin than when looping backspin a normal thing, should I just drive or loopdrive no spin balls, or what? I understand that you'd not want to slow loop a no spin ball in the first place, but surely there should be a way to impart a bit more spin on it.

    Thanks.

    @NextLevel
    @UpSideDownCarl
    @Shuki
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    #2
    Seriously, if no spin then just kill it with a punch, drive, flick or loop. Slow loops are not really viable at higher levels as players will just loop kill it especially if you slow loop a no spin ball. If you really want to slow loop a no spin ball, you can try mimicking an attackers brush loop against a chopper but with less upward swing motion as they are lifting underspin but same principle. Brushing will be key

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    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by SilentRain
    Seriously, if no spin then just kill it with a punch, drive, flick or loop. Slow loops are not really viable at higher levels as players will just loop kill it especially if you slow loop a no spin ball. If you really want to slow loop a no spin ball, you can try mimicking an attackers brush loop against a chopper but with less upward swing motion as they are lifting underspin but same principle. Brushing will be key
    I've noticed that it's a lot better to just loopkill it if my opponent messes up enough to give me one, but I'm a developing player so I think I need to learn to slow loop no spin as well.

    That upwards looping motion you're talking about is what I'm trying to do, and I can't get that much spin because like you said, it goes off the edge if I lift it a lot like with backspin.

    Do I just need to brush gentler?

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    #4
    Its all about finnese and contact. Brush faster and maximise contact of the ball on the rubber without much swing. Maybe taking the ball later will help as the ball is now lower and can compensate for overlooping out of the table

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    Last edited by SilentRain; 04-13-2016 at 10:21 PM.

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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by SilentRain
    Its all about finnese and contact. Brush faster and maximise contact of the ball on the rubber without much swing. Maybe taking the ball later will help as the ball is now lower and can compensate for overlooping out of the table
    The best I've been able to do, usually because it's half long and very close to the edge, is to wait until it's quite low under the table and brushing it fairly quickly mostly in an upwards movement, not coming across my body as much as in a normal loop. The follow through angle is similar to the one you have when looping down the line from the forehand corner, with the FH rubber pointing forward.

    Maybe I'm doing it right and I'm just expecting too much. I'll try to include some in the next video that I get the chance to capture, so you guys can see if there's something wrong.

    It's not a terribly bad shot if I clip the net on the way and place it well, but more spin would make it better, I think.

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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by SilentRain
    Seriously, if no spin then just kill it with a punch, drive, flick or loop. Slow loops are not really viable at higher levels as players will just loop kill it especially if you slow loop a no spin ball. If you really want to slow loop a no spin ball, you can try mimicking an attackers brush loop against a chopper but with less upward swing motion as they are lifting underspin but same principle. Brushing will be key
    What do you consider a high level? And when you think about it, don't you have to slow loop a no-spin ball against a chopper sometimes? Moreso because you can't be sure about the amount of spin on the ball?

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    Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

    "We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus
    I've noticed that it's a lot better to just loopkill it if my opponent messes up enough to give me one, but I'm a developing player so I think I need to learn to slow loop no spin as well.

    That upwards looping motion you're talking about is what I'm trying to do, and I can't get that much spin because like you said, it goes off the edge if I lift it a lot like with backspin.

    Do I just need to brush gentler?
    "Upward" looping motions are fraught with danger. Come around the side of the ball forward and over it - you may combine that with some upward motion if you want some arc, but that can also be determined by contact point. You can only go upward on the back of a ball if you are sure the ball has a lot of backspin. Anything else is dangerous.

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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel
    "Upward" looping motions are fraught with danger. Come around the side of the ball forward and over it - you may combine that with some upward motion if you want some arc, but that can also be determined by contact point. You can only go upward on the back of a ball if you are sure the ball has a lot of backspin. Anything else is dangerous.
    That makes sense. I come on the back of the ball for the most part when looping backspin and I'm sure it's heavy. I find that better.

    Normally I try to go around and over, but I've found that for this it ends up in just a spinless touch shot basically, or at least it feels like it. So I try going up on the back of the ball, but I'm sure THIS is what is causing the upwards throw angle and making it go off.

    If the shot is over the side, I loop it along the side and over it and I actually get enough spin that I'm satisfied, but not if it's in the middle for example. The table is in the way, so I can't lift it with a lot of arc, and trying to come around it and forward does get it on the table but it feels floaty.

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    #9
    @Next level
    I dont have a rating figure to give you but i consider high level to be where your opponent will consistently punish you fatally if you do the wrong things. Thats why the coach for my club division trained us to never slow loop unless its an emergency. Good placement will almost always be better than that. Most of choppers i play will happily punch kill or loopkill a slow loop and the good ones are very accurate at doing so. Plus if its a no spin ball, then surely theres no spin on the ball so how can i not be sure about the amount of spin?

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    #10
    Silentrain, "heavy no-spin" is a spin too, as long as it looks like heavy backspin or heavy topspin.

  11. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #11
    Sounds like you are working hard. When you have footage of what you are trying to do, I am sure comments on technique to help you improve will be much more accurately on target to the information that will help you.


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    #12
    A few wass to go about looping a no spin slow ball and some progression to move towards a faster/more quality shot.

    First attack to learn is a heavy spin to land deep. Use 1/2 of everything - Power, graze, solid contact, lift. Go for heavy spin land it deep and NOT in Opponent's power zone. You will be surprized at how well it works at BH corner or body deep

    Later, when you get more touch and timing and better movement to the ball for position and leverage, you can increasingly hit more forward and more solid gradually, so that later, you are making a strong forward high impact power loop kill.

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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel
    What do you consider a high level? And when you think about it, don't you have to slow loop a no-spin ball against a chopper sometimes? Moreso because you can't be sure about the amount of spin on the ball?
    In the last two tournaments I played I faced players that consistently counterlooped my slow openings, in U1300, U1600 and U1750 events. Since that I'm putting tremendous effort to improve the pace of my openings and their placement.

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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    A few wass to go about looping a no spin slow ball and some progression to move towards a faster/more quality shot.

    First attack to learn is a heavy spin to land deep. Use 1/2 of everything - Power, graze, solid contact, lift. Go for heavy spin land it deep and NOT in Opponent's power zone. You will be surprized at how well it works at BH corner or body deep

    Later, when you get more touch and timing and better movement to the ball for position and leverage, you can increasingly hit more forward and more solid gradually, so that later, you are making a strong forward high impact power loop kill.
    If I manage to land it with a big arc, it's always in the last inch or so, and I can place it wherever I want in a game. Even without so much spin it works nicely if I hit it deep into someone's body when they're jammed up. If they're ready, I think they can just smack it, so that's why I wanna improve it.

    @UpSideDownCarl

    Oh, you bet I am working. I've been staying overtime, looping thrown balls from my hand, to cover up for lost practice time. Only took several weeks and many hours every day, but I'm starting to get a hang of it. I can spin well in matches, now.


    I've been wanting to get footage out for over half a month now, but not found a good partner to train with. If I'm lucky, tomorrow maybe...

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    #15
    Looping softly when one is uncertain about the amount of spin makes sense, but from my point of view it falls under the definition of "emergency" as SilentRain said.

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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilia Minkin
    In the last two tournaments I played I faced players that consistently counterlooped my slow openings, in U1300, U1600 and U1750 events. Since that I'm putting tremendous effort to improve the pace of my openings and their placement.

    Raise the spin level. Raise the spin level. You have good spin on your backhand but not your forehand if your game is as I remember it. No one consistently counterloops heavy topspin openers if you put max effort into the spin level. Placement of course is an issue as is variation and height. Spin level is relative to level - my spin level will not trouble Ma Long, but it can trouble 2200 players.

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    Last edited by NextLevel; 04-13-2016 at 11:36 PM.
    Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

    "We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

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    #17
    I can loop fast. Getting the safe, slow loop out is the hard part, for some whacky reason. I feel like the fast loop has enough spin, because compared to my slow loop on no-spin, it has nearly the same arc if my slow loop is low.

    One of my favorite 5th ball setups is light back/side to backhand -> They push to my forehand and make it go half long -> Fast loop forehand corner -> They return it to my forehand -> Loopkill/slap to their backhand corner

    Free points against people with a bad short game.

    @NextLevel

    Effort? Should I try to really brush it hard with a fast movement?

    The best no-spin slow loop I can remember is a huge arc with a ton of topspin that I accidentally pulled off when I just let go one time. I'd like to do that consistently.
    Last edited by Archosaurus; 04-13-2016 at 11:36 PM.

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    #18
    Ilia, whatever works for you vs that opponent you face, do it man.

    A slow, HEAVY opener, even if it is not well placed, as long as it is REAL heavy and deep is a great shot. It is a QUALITY shot. It wins points and sets me up to win points. I spin first and ask questions later, unless opponent gives me high stuff I see.

    A fast shot to the right place deep is also a QUALITY ball.

    One should be working to increase one's QUALITY of shots... lots of stuff goes into quality, (spin/speed/placement/choice of ball to play, choice of speed/spin to give, height and depth of ball...) but a QUALITY shot troubles opponents.

    I heavy spun my way to within one point of winning the U2000 finals in a ringer club, 15 of the 40 players in the field coulda went to the finals. I must have put heavy topspin (slow and deep) on 70% of the balls I opened up on. The rest were good chance for fast loops from a small high return of dead serve or change of spin I gave.

    The other thing to worry about is CONSISTENCY to go along with the quality of your shot.

    Those are tough things to grow quickly, but that should be the goal for shots overall. Quality and Consistency

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    #19
    I'm not concerned about speed right now myself. I have a lot of ways to generate speed with reasonable spin.

    What I'm looking for is a super slow, super heavy opening loop that'll smack into your groin and spin up your shirt if you're not ready. I've seen it happen once.

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    #20
    BTW, looping "softly" is a very interesting and ambiguous term - I don't mean lazy looping when I say slow looping. Sometimes, a good slow loop can require just as much effort as a good fast loop and sometimes, slow loops are really medium/fast in some contexts. If you see Der Echte slow looping (or heavy topspin looping), you will think he just lifted 10 tonnes of bricks. The best slow looper in my club plants himself firmly below the table before doing a full lift to standing level to impart maximum spin. And yes, players rated 100-200 pts above him can counterloop or kill his ball sometimes if it is badly placed. But players at his level or below him can just as easily miss the ball no matter where he places it. Spin is always relative.

    What you are doing is putting max effort into the spin over speed so that the opponent has to time the loop correctly to make proper contact. It's not necessarily slow, but the ball just doesn't fly through the air. Some people achieve a similar effect by using spinnier (Tenergy, MX-S) or slower (H3, Baracuda) rubbers but the overall point is the same. You can also loop slowly and keep the ball low with maximum brush.

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    Last edited by NextLevel; 04-13-2016 at 11:51 PM.
    Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

    "We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

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