Looping slow no spin balls

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BTW, looping "softly" is a very interesting and ambiguous term - I don't mean lazy looping when I say slow looping. Sometimes, a good slow loop can require just as much effort as a good fast loop and sometimes, slow loops are really medium/fast in some contexts. If you see Der Echte slow looping (or heavy topspin looping), you will think he just lifted 10 tonnes of bricks. What you are doing is putting max effort into the spin over speed so that the opponent has to time the loop correctly to make proper contact. It's not necessarily slow, but the ball just doesn't fly through the air. Some people achieve a similar effect by using spinnier (Tenergy, MX-S) or slower (H3, Baracuda) rubbers but the overall point is the same. You can also loop slowly and keep the ball low with maximum brush.
I've once achieved a huuuuuuge arc on my loop with maximum effort, like I'm doing max weight one rep squats, although it wasn't onto a completely dead ball, IIRC. So I know it's possible with my equipment and touch.

I should be able to get consistent at those if I just know exactly what I should do (I'm going to try really brushing into it and throwing caution into the wind for a while), and I'll settle for the high arc. I'm pretty sure I need to master the high arc first before I can do those amazing super heavy shots with a full swing yet the ball barely goes over the net.

Oh yeah. Looping softly. Is it any good? To actually loop with a slow bat speed? That is, as a decision and not because your consistency for a good brush is low.

Slow is a bit relative, but say, 50%.
 
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Ilia, whatever works for you vs that opponent you face, do it man.

A slow, HEAVY opener, even if it is not well placed, as long as it is REAL heavy and deep is a great shot. It is a QUALITY shot. It wins points and sets me up to win points. I spin first and ask questions later, unless opponent gives me high stuff I see.

A fast shot to the right place deep is also a QUALITY ball.

One should be working to increase one's QUALITY of shots... lots of stuff goes into quality, (spin/speed/placement/choice of ball to play, choice of speed/spin to give, height and depth of ball...) but a QUALITY shot troubles opponents.

I completely agree, it is important to be able to change all three things: speed, spin and placement, not just spin. There is nothing more frustrating than to watch your opener passing by.

5255114.jpg
 
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I completely agree, it is important to be able to change all three things: speed, spin and placement, not just spin. There is nothing more frustrating than to watch your opener passing by.
An attack don't matter if it's lousy. "Strive to perform the first meaningful attack" is a phrase I like.

Even the kids at my school can slap the hell out of a lousy opener.
 
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I completely agree, it is important to be able to change all three things: speed, spin and placement, not just spin. There is nothing more frustrating than to watch your opener passing by.

5255114.jpg


Yeah - I think that sometimes, heavy spin is overrated as the ball gets larger. But it is still a weapon. It's all relative. I saw a guy repeatedly slow loop to Amy Wang's backhand with his - I was expecting her to kill it with her super backhand but she often blocked the ball off the table. Took her some time to adjust.
 
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@NextLevel
@UpSideDownCarl
@SilentRain
@Der_Echte

Here's a video of me trying to figure out the proper swing and body position. Looping no spin feels terribly awkward so most of these will not be pretty, and there's a few drives mixed in because I was terribly out of position. Hard to get into position if I don't know where it is, because my topspin/backspin backswing positions don't feel good for this, and neither do these.

I think my swing is more correct than my body movement. Usually I'm too hunched over and leaning to the side. I think a straighter back relative to the ground is better, with less body and more arm.

Oh well, you give me your thoughts.

 
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You are generally contacting the ball around net height. When you are doing this drill, try to contact the ball slightly lower than table height. This will do 2 things.

1) It will force you to get lower.

2) It will force you to learn to spin the ball better.

If you hit from below the table it will force you to create more arc on the ball. Which means you will either have to hit slower, or put more spin on the ball.

But, video of you looping dead balls vs a live opponent might be more helpful to your development. Adjustment to ball placement when you place the ball for yourself is totally different than adjustment to ball placement when someone is placing the ball from across the table.

This drill is good practice. It can help you feel the right contact for looping dead balls. But it doesn't show much about what would happen against a real opponent.

By the way, I think on a dead ball it is good to have bat speed slow on contact to hold the ball on the rubber for longer and to have serious acceleration of racket speed after the ball has sunk into the sponge and the topsheet has really grabbed the ball.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 
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You are generally contacting the ball around net height. When you are doing this drill, try to contact the ball slightly lower than table height. This will do 2 things.

1) It will force you to get lower.

2) It will force you to learn to spin the ball better.

If you hit from below the table it will force you to create more arc on the ball. Which means you will either have to hit slower, or put more spin on the ball.

But, video of you looping dead balls vs a live opponent might be more helpful to your development. Adjustment to ball placement when you place the ball for yourself is totally different than adjustment to ball placement when someone is placing the ball from across the table.

This drill is good practice. It can help you feel the right contact for looping dead balls. But it doesn't show much about what would happen against a real opponent.

By the way, I think on a dead ball it is good to have bat speed slow on contact to hold the ball on the rubber for longer and to have serious acceleration of racket speed after the ball has sunk into the sponge and the topsheet has really grabbed the ball.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

I've found what you said to be true. I didn't even notice I was contacting at net height: I was trying to not use my body too much and to focus on the arm. The video shows that I am sometimes leaning over with my CoG not in the middle of my support platform ie: leg base.

Next time, I'll wait more, have the stance a bit wider and lower and try to loop slower. These shots I'm doing are actually a lot closer to my "safe" rallying strokes vs light spin, and not a slow loop on a slow ball. They're basically the kind of shots I'd do when the ball clips the net and I can't return it aggressively, or someone pushes long very light and low at me but I don't feel confident in killing it. So I think I'll have to go lower and focus on holding the ball more to get the spinny loop to stick.


I feel that my adjustment and footwork against a live opponent is better. The ball isn't coming at me here and isn't coming off a racket so it's a bit strange. I am also better in position before a stroke vs when I throw the ball.

I couldn't get anyone to feed to me today, but maybe tomorrow.
 
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Also, another key to knowing if you are spinning the ball well: those shots, if you had remotely decent spin on them would bounce away from that back wall as they do and then get pulled back to the wall by the spin. Your picking most of them up near the table and it seems they are bouncing but not spinning anymore.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 
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Also, another key to knowing if you are spinning the ball well: those shots, if you had remotely decent spin on them would bounce away from that back wall as they do and then get pulled back to the wall by the spin. Your picking most of them up near the table and it seems they are bouncing but not spinning anymore.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
The wall is pretty rough. It seems to kill 9/10 of the spin on impact. The ball still spins forward after hitting it, but not too much. If the ball goes into the net, the spin's many, many times heavier than when it hits the wall and it'd easily travel past the wall if it wasn't there.

You can't really see it, but the bounce of the ball on the table is a rapid forward acceleration that's lower than the arc. If someone misses a block and the ball hits their abdomen and they try to take it while it's spinning, it'll fly out of their hand in the direction of my sidespin.

It's not that heavy spin, but I'm pretty sure it's at least remotely decent. They're not drives.

EDIT: Is there a more reliable, practical way to measure spin? Getting a big ball catch net here is obviously not a thing I'll do on this public school table, but maybe there's something. A return board like thing that'd bounce the ball back onto my side and I'd see how much it travels forward. That'd be nice. Maybe I could even fabricate one with some bats and elaborate placement of books and props to hold it up at an angle. :p

I'm really not fond of the "hitting wall" method. I've had quite big topspins come at me that blast past me with greater speed than I expected based on the flight speed, and when they hit the wall, they barely travel half a meter back towards the wall. It'll even basically stop a backspin ball from spinning if you serve one softly into the wall from very close by. Not very accurate or reliable.
 
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Draw two intersecting circles on your practice ball(s). Then you can more clearly see your spin in the air. See example

View attachment 9775

I actually just ordered some Joola Spinballs which quite clearly show spin in the air.

If the ball nearly appears to be one color in the air when it has two sides with different color and a black line separating them, is that any good spin? Should it be 100% completely uniform in color to be considered heavy spin?
 
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Haven't read responses sorry. But if you're struggling to loop nospin balls, loosen your grip and slow down. You're not supposed to be able to loop a no-spin ball extremely aggressively.

Theres a reason the dead ball serve is becoming so popular. If it's below net height with almost no spin, they can't attack the ball very hard. At best they can just try and place it well with their loop. If I were to give you a heavy topspin or heavy backspin ball, you get to use that spin to make your loop more powerful.

You've seen NL's video's of his play. I'm willing to bet the reason he does such heavy spin on his serves is so that the opponents return will also have quite a bit of spin still on the ball. This allows him to shoot golfballs at his opponent with his loops. Then he also mixes in the no-spin serves with his backspin ones to keep the opponent honest. NL's counter loop is powerful and if he can get his opponent to attack his short no-spin serve, then he's getting a ball that he can really rip into after that. He knows their ball isn't coming too fast or spinny for him. All he has to worry about is reacting to their placement.
 
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Haven't read responses sorry. But if you're struggling to loop nospin balls, loosen your grip and slow down. You're not supposed to be able to loop a no-spin ball extremely aggressively.

Theres a reason the dead ball serve is becoming so popular. If it's below net height with almost no spin, they can't attack the ball very hard. At best they can just try and place it well with their loop. If I were to give you a heavy topspin or heavy backspin ball, you get to use that spin to make your loop more powerful.

You've seen NL's video's of his play. I'm willing to bet the reason he does such heavy spin on his serves is so that the opponents return will also have quite a bit of spin still on the ball. This allows him to shoot golfballs at his opponent with his loops. Then he also mixes in the no-spin serves with his backspin ones to keep the opponent honest. NL's counter loop is powerful and if he can get his opponent to attack his short no-spin serve, then he's getting a ball that he can really rip into after that. He knows their ball isn't coming too fast or spinny for him. All he has to worry about is reacting to their placement.

I can place slow loops very well and they have quite a bit of arc with this new setup, too. I still feel they are not too spinny, though.

They will travel back towards the wall and they will pop up violently off a racket that's not closed, but they won't travel too fast and they don't pop up at absolutely tremendous speed, just at a big angle.

My fast topspins can probably be actually called loops or loopdrives now with this new setup, because I've found a way, with wrist and elbow whipping, to get enough topspin on a very fast stroke so that the ball bounces up when it hits the back wall and doesn't even really travel back towards me: it'll just keep spinning at the wall over and over, bumping into it a few times. I'm pretty sure that's due to spin, because I wasn't getting it before.


My slow loops on the other hand, don't feel so spinny. People pop them up like crazy and it's more common for them to make them go off the edge than get them on the table, but they don't appear to be spinning that fast.

Maybe they're spinning pretty well relative to the speed, because they're very slow and there's a pronounced arc, but then shouldn't they accelerate very much after hitting the ground when they come back at me, or pop up from the wall at an angle? They roll back quite disappointingly.


Is that normal, or is my touch just bad?
 
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One of the 2400 plus players at my club is constantly varying the speed of his loops, and the height and trajectory. You never feel comfortable. He is in his 40s now, but back when he was in his 20s he was just shy of 2600. Played the same way then only he moved better.

As for the original post, getting the skill of looping all sorts of balls, including slow dead ones, is something that multiball training is really good for.
 
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You know, I have a pretty simple problem. I'll just describe it here.

Whenever I brush loop anything that's not a respectable amount of backspin, it'll go out. The arc will be okay for the speed, but it'll be too fast and it'll have a huge throw angle off the rubber. It feels like I'm basically just lifting it high and long.


Logically, I'd just need more spin in this case. Yet even when I brush thinly enough to miss the ball half the time, it still launches it out. I'm certain it's contacting the rubber surface and not the edge or anything.

Is the answer here just more racket head speed and hope for the best, or is it something else? Is my blade angle perhaps too open? I keep it around 70 to 80 deg.

Oh, also, I can slow loop drives and pushes, especially with my backhand, but my blade angle is closer to 30 deg there.
 
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I think this has more to do with the quality and consistency of your contact and your feel, your ability to feel and get the rubber to grab the ball instead of bumping into the ball, the ability to feel the racket pull past the ball as if the ball is rolling on the topsheet. I could be wrong because seeing it would be different than hearing your description. But from your description, that is what it sounds like.
 
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I think this has more to do with the quality and consistency of your contact and your feel, your ability to feel and get the rubber to grab the ball instead of bumping into the ball, the ability to feel the racket pull past the ball as if the ball is rolling on the topsheet. I could be wrong because seeing it would be different than hearing your description. But from your description, that is what it sounds like.
I didn't record anything because I was out of battery and also time, but I'll get something next time. It's very similar to the last video I posted, for reference. I'm just trying to spin more.


I think I'm just simply bumping into the ball and not rolling it over the topsheet. Is it inconsistency in blade angle? How exactly would I go about fixing this with simple drills for example?
 
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You know, I have a pretty simple problem. I'll just describe it here.

Whenever I brush loop anything that's not a respectable amount of backspin, it'll go out. The arc will be okay for the speed, but it'll be too fast and it'll have a huge throw angle off the rubber. It feels like I'm basically just lifting it high and long.


Logically, I'd just need more spin in this case. Yet even when I brush thinly enough to miss the ball half the time, it still launches it out. I'm certain it's contacting the rubber surface and not the edge or anything.

Is the answer here just more racket head speed and hope for the best, or is it something else? Is my blade angle perhaps too open? I keep it around 70 to 80 deg.

Oh, also, I can slow loop drives and pushes, especially with my backhand, but my blade angle is closer to 30 deg there.

No, I think the answer is shear trial and error, so you figure it out yourself. That comes from multiball drills where someone feed you balls of various spins and speeds. As time goes on they feed you more varied balls but initially they concentrate on the balls you can make; then the balls you miss; then gradual increase in variation.

It is the only way to get to where you can do it without thinking about it when you are under pressure. You can't be thinking about mechanics when playing live.

In other words, on the ones you miss, you are given so many balls that you sort of figure it out. You try all sorts of things. One of those things will be the correct answer.
 
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I think I'm just simply bumping into the ball and not rolling it over the topsheet. Is it inconsistency in blade angle? How exactly would I go about fixing this with simple drills for example?

It might be sort of like this:


Or maybe like this:


Well, if you can't find the answers in my favorite Strong Bad Email episodes, then, I don't know what will help.

But you could try that ball bounce thing the way I do it:


Use 20-30 balls minimum so you get rapid succession practice. You keep trying to brush and every so often you feel something different. Then over time you start feeling it more and more often. And then you can do it every time when you do the ball bounce. Then you realize that while you are hitting with a real person you are still hitting flat and you start trying to brush and at a certain point you start getting it. Then at a certain point you can do it most of the time.

Otherwise you can go out and buy yourself one of those wheels:


When you are not brushing with that, when you bang into it you know. But if you bang into it hard, you can break your racket.

With any of the methods for learning that kind of contact, there will still be a transitional period where you can do it in the drill but not against a person.

The drills are just to get you to know how to brush and what it feels like. Then you have to experiment and practice to get in while playing against someone.


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