4th Ball and Beyond!

UpSideDownCarl said:

So, I am okay with the fact that Archi is enthusiastic about Table Tennis. That is a good thing. But him trying to pretend he knows stuff he doesn't, well, in other fields people like that are capable of being even more dangerous.

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I am sure that if archo had to write that POS again based on what he had learned at TTD, some of it would go into the trash but because of his misguided sense of brilliance, many dangerous elements would remain. If I ever met archo, I would strictly give him those slow spinny loops that get killed at higher levels. And like I often do, I would give him a slow spinny loop when the ball is high and killable and see what he thinks when he realized that he still can't keep that ball on the table or how annoying it is to run down a ball whose trajectory is completely alien to him.

Archosaurus said:

How do you know that I don't study engineering, science and business?


For the rest of the thread, all I can say is, you're right. I don't think I have a reason to try to deny it. If you get a laugh out of it, then all the better, at least someone's having a good time.

Although I should really apologize to any people who read some of my posts who don't actually know what's right: it's my method of getting the truth out of people, but I am definitely not right. Don't listen to me, most of the time.

Now, I look like an absolute fool and no one likes me here, but I sure as hell have got reliable information that is the result of many years of people's hard work: and for free too! You guys really do put things how they are when someone is saying nonsense, you know.

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If you do study those things, especially business, and you can't tell that you are spouting a lot of BS, your only excuse is your youth. When I say study, I don't mean read books. I mean actually do things as a practitioner.

That said, let's not ruin knife's thread with another archo trial.

NextLevel said:

I am sure that if archo had to write that POS again based on what he had learned at TTD, some of it would go into the trash but because of his misguided sense of brilliance, many dangerous elements would remain. If I ever met archo, I would strictly give him those slow spinny loops that get killed at higher levels. And like I often do, I would give him a slow spinny loop when the ball is high and killable and see what he thinks when he realized that he still can't keep that ball on the table or how annoying it is to run down a ball whose trajectory is completely alien to him.

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NL, that whole post would go into the rubbish. I don't think there's anything correct there. I've listened to what the reputable people here say, and done what they say. It's pretty good advice.

@Slow loops

I was wrong about them. I'm sure you all know why heavy, high loops that drop down at a sharp angle are a pain, so I don't need to explain why I was wrong.


NL, I have no excuse. I don't think you've yet figured it out, but I am definitely not intelligent nor am I smart.

Anyway, I agree. I think there has been enough prosecution for today.

Now, let me go and make a thread about the equipment that just arrived, several days earlier than it was stated to arrive.

Even the equipment manufactures have started taking emergency measures , who knows they might send you a mail-in-practice parther and a mail-in-coach for free as well

Archosaurus said:

NL, that whole post would go into the rubbish. I don't think there's anything correct there. I've listened to what the reputable people here say, and done what they say. It's pretty good advice.

@Slow loops

I was wrong about them. I'm sure you all know why heavy, high loops that drop down at a sharp angle are a pain, so I don't need to explain why I was wrong.


NL, I have no excuse. I don't think you've yet figured it out, but I am definitely not intelligent nor am I smart.

Anyway, I agree. I think there has been enough prosecution for today.

Now, let me go and make a thread about the equipment that just arrived, several days earlier than it was stated to arrive.

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ttmonster said:

Even the equipment manufactures have started taking emergency measures , who knows they might send you a mail-in-practice parther and a mail-in-coach for free as well

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I really have to give it to TT11 though. I heard their delivery is fast, but not this fast!

A free mail-in-practice partner and mail-in-coach would really interest me. The free mail-in-competition table might be a small shipping issue, though.

I, for one, don't dislike you. But you are a total boob-brain when you try to pretend you know what you are talking about. You would do better to ask good questions.

Look how hard it was to get you to post video so we could actually sort out what some of your problems were. And all that talk about massive spin with a rubber that was actually not all that far from anti-spin.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to learn and get better. But stop trying to pretend you know things you don't.

Asking good questions will help. This will help you in other areas of your life as well.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

UpSideDownCarl said:

There is nothing wrong with wanting to learn and get better. But stop trying to pretend you know things you don't.

Asking good questions will help. This will help you in other areas of your life as well.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

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End of discussion.

I'll make it a guideline to ask at least 5 times as much as I tell, then.

Now, Carl, take a look at my thread so we can stop derailing poor Knife's thread.

http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?12941-Christmas-came-early-this-year

Shuki said:

A good setup will not give you more relevant experience.

Complicated to try and explain without visuals, but I would best describe it as him usually taking one step, doing a relaxed stroke, stepping back, taking one step doing a stroke, stepping back, taking one step, doing a stroke. not really using both feet and body transfer as much with his feet. Hard to explain well.

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i would like to know more.

I may break it down later, I still personally didn't understand myself all that was wrong with his footwork, but when I've been with a high level coach and plan on staying with the same coach for a while, I take everything they say as true. I don't disagree with a high level player on the pro's and cons to each aspect but I do sometimes question it. Maybe this is a time when I should have questioned it.

For arch's responses. I think this is one of those times we should give up and just let him be wrong on the subject. There's been enough posts that anyone reading the thread would realize that arch is wrong and wouldn't follow his advice.

Shuki said:

I may break it down later, I still personally didn't understand myself all that was wrong with his footwork, but when I've been with a high level coach and plan on staying with the same coach for a while, I take everything they say as true. I don't disagree with a high level player on the pro's and cons to each aspect but I do sometimes question it. Maybe this is a time when I should have questioned it.

For arch's responses. I think this is one of those times we should give up and just let him be wrong on the subject. There's been enough posts that anyone reading the thread would realize that arch is wrong and wouldn't follow his advice.

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there obviously isn't anything wrong with his footwork, maybe there are some things that are hard to emulate if you are not him.

i would like to hear your shot at an analysis even if it's wrong, i like hearing different takes on such matters. hell, i even enjoy reading archo's posts, he throws a lot of ideas out there and it's fun for me to see how much of it is on the right track and how much is completely off. although i do agree he should be more careful with his theories for reasons that nextlevel has already stated.

what he said about moving and performing a stroke at the same time i find particularly interesting. pretty much every coach will tell you "feet first, stroke second" and it is the best way for beginners to get into good habits... but it doesn't perfectly describe what happens in game play situations. or better yet it is, but only when you have enough time.

have a look at 0:14 here:
this is even more pronounced when the ball is so wide to the forehand that you have to use a cross step:

izra said:

this is even more pronounced when the ball is so wide to the forehand that you have to use a cross step:

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Izra, when I wrote this paragraph:

UpSideDownCarl said:

If you read his footwork explanation of the stroke and moving your feet at the same time, that is an emergency measure that you may sometimes employ, but it is definitely not the technique you want to train for most situations and if you are using this kind of technique too much of the time, that means you are continually out of position and could cause knee and back damage.

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I absolutely had that video you posted second in mind.

It is a technique you can and should train. It is better to train it and do it well so that, in a situation where you needed this kind of footwork you can do it well.

However, this is not the kind of footwork you want to train as your primary method for getting to the ball.

This would work better. Notice, XX gets from the deep BH to the deep FH with standard non crossover footwork and is well set for each shot regardless of how fast he is moving.


So, you may want to train a variety of kinds of footwork drills. The way Archie had described it, was as if that was how it is supposed to be. Not that moving while hitting is something you sometimes want to be able to pull out of your hat but want to use it as little as possible.

Regardless of the minor details, your post is an excellent one.

indeed he does use the standard one-step footwork and indeed he is well set for each shot. but he is still hitting the ball and moving at the same time.

if we look at the shot in his deep forehand we will notice he gets there using two one-steps: the first one only gets him to the middle of the table and the second one actually gets him where he needs to be. the second one is performed together with the weight transfer as he is hitting his forehand.

this is why i teach my students to slighlty lift their feet from the ground while doing a weight transfer. this way you can adjust your position at the last possible moment without the stroke falling apart.

now if we further analyze xu xin's shot from the deep forehand, we will notice that even the first of the two side steps has started while he was still performing a stroke: the forehand from the BH corner.

(EDIT: actually i was wrong, he gets there in three little side steps: the first one during the stroke from the BH corner gets him closer to the middle, the second one is between strokes and it gets him even closer to the deep FH, and the third one that finally gets him there is performed together with the stroke)

the ONLY stroke in the whole video that is performed while remaining in position is the very first ball that his coach throws at him. on the second ball xu xin is already moving to his right as he is hitting it so he can be ready for the next one. as he is hitting the third ball he changes the momentum from right to left so mid stroke he starts getting closer to the position for the deep FH one.

moving into position first and hitting second is the ideal but in a real match it only happens when you have lots of time. most of the time you actually HAVE to hit the ball as you are moving.

if you compared the drill from the video to a real match you could say that xu xin is "cheating" because he starts moving to the ball very early knowing where it is coming, but this is not a situational drill anyway, it is not supposed to emulate an exact match like situation.

unless your name is nostradamus and you anticipate every ball perfectly down to the last inch, moving while performing the weight transfer is the only way to not reach out for the ball with your hand (at least for balls that aren't slow). and that is the whole point after all, using your feet while maintaining balance and always keeping the same stroke.

when you unglue your feet from the ground while performing a forehand you will soon be able to move (a little) in any direction whilst performing the stroke thus making your timing better and strokes more uniform.

the reason this shouldn't be taught to beginners is that they will start moving their feet too much and jumping into the strokes. positioning first and stroke second really is the way to train before your footwork gets to a high enough level that you don't have to think about how to move around the table in the most efficient way.