Build the best player

ttmonster · Apr 21, 2016

Okay now seriously , Kevin I am not sure about applegren , you might be right I would not contest that.

Let me try to build the best player :

Forehand Opening Loop : Ma Lin

Forehand close to the table : Waldner -> More variety and great defensive capability , not just sheer power

Forehand mid distance and far from the table : Wang Liqin

Forehand serve return : Ma Lin on shake hand now Zhang Jike has started coming very close

Backhand opening loop : Zhang Jike

backhand close to the table : Zhang Jike -> Variety more than anybody

backhand mid distance : Vladimir Samsonov

backhand return of serve : Zhang Jike -> He has redefined his serve return

Backhand close to the table : Zhang Jike

Backhand Mid distnace : Samsonov

Backhand far from the table : Michael Maze

Footwork : Shakehand : Zhang Jike in his early twenties Penhold : Ryu Seung Min covered the table with his forehand

Defensive Tactical thinking : Samsonov

Offensive Tactical thinking : Waldner ( I have not seen applegren play waldner but I think it was in the early days , waldner has lasted long and its a testimony to his adaptability )

anchorschmidt · Apr 21, 2016

Vision: Timo Boll
Forehand close to the table: Waldner (a lot of deception and variety). I would have loved to put Boll here because of sheer spin but his technique won't work in combination with the other techniques.
Forehand mid-distance: Wang Liqin
Forehand serve return: Vladimir Samsonov (master of the push).
Backhand close to the table: Zhang Jike. Way too safe. The spin and variety is also something else.
Backhand mid-distance: Kreanga
Lobbing: Mizutani/Maze
Physique: Ryu Seung Min
Footwork: Fan Zhendong. (RSM didn't have any backhand footwork technique)

Tactics: Waldner
Serve: Waldner
Backhand Serve return: Zhang Jike.

Anders · Apr 21, 2016

Overseer Kevin said:
Ahhhhh....a worthy opponent!

Hmm...that 3rd ball FH choice is hard to beat! Maybe impossible. Lol
Excellent choice for serve as well. Only problem is he misses a bit much for me.
Sportsmanship...yeah, you got it!
Footwork...I can't agree. I think Xu Xin is by far the best. The ground he covers is crazy!
Celebration? Watch the barriers and all that expensive DHS marketing. Lol Zhang Jike is going to kick the crap outta your signs. Lol

I'll have to disagree on the footwork.. See, both RSM and XX covers great ground, but XX plays with the backhand too, RSM did not. Just look at the 2004 Olympics and you'll see.

PiZa · Apr 21, 2016

FH ( 3rd ball ) - Ma Lin
FH ( rally ) - Xu Xin
BH ( 3rd ball ) - Kreanga
BH ( rally ) - Mattenet
Block - Waldner
Lobbing - Maze
Ball placement - Samsonov
Short game - Oh Sang Eun
Footwork - Ryu Seung Min

MV_Smoove_BHD · Apr 21, 2016

Service: Jan Ove Waldner
Backhand over the table: Zhang Jike
Forehand over the table: Ma Lin
Block: Waldner
Backhand (3rd Ball & Rally): Kalinikos Kreanga
Forehand (3rd Ball & Rally): Wang Liqin
Lob-Defence: Vladimir Samsonov
Footwork: Ryu-Seung Min
Mental-strenght: Werner Schlager

Sali · Apr 21, 2016

serve - Schlager
receive - Ma Long
3rd ball FH attack - Ma Long
3rd ball BH attack - kreanga
Bh flick - FZD
block - Waldner
in/out fh - XX
making oponent cry - Waldner
nice to watch - Mizutani

Yecats Encerwal · Apr 21, 2016

In terms of pure speed, RSM's footwork was incredible! Imagine if he had Kreanga/ZJK's backhand to go with that!

ZJK's passion in my opinion is just phenomenal, A few broken barriers is a worthy sacrifice for such emotion. Its good that pro players are passionate and not just doing it for the dollar dollar!

Kenta's serving is a bit inconsistent I agree - they look great though!

Perhaps a server who we are forgetting is the one and only Dimitrij Ovtcharov?

Yecats Encerwal · Apr 21, 2016

PiZa said:
FH ( 3rd ball ) - Ma Lin
FH ( rally ) - Xu Xin
BH ( 3rd ball ) - Kreanga
BH ( rally ) - Mattenet
Block - Waldner
Lobbing - Maze
Ball placement - Samsonov
Short game - Oh Sang Eun
Footwork - Ryu Seung Min

I admit Mattenet has a good backhand, but to put it above the likes of Zhang Jike or Ovtcharov seems crazy!

I also think that Pitchford's backhand is as good/better than Adrian Mattenet, thoughts?

Henning_W · Apr 21, 2016

FH - Ma Long
FH - mid-distance - Xu Xin
BH - Fan Zhendong
BH - mid-distance - Dimitrij Ovtcharov
Serve - Liu Guoliang
Mental-strenth - Wang Liqin
Block - JO
Movement - Zhang Jike

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 21, 2016

As I said earlier, I actually just think that the CNT has done this with all four of these guys separately:

1) Ma Long
2) Zhang Jike
3) Xu Xin
4) Fan Zhendong

They are listed in no particular order. No need to change things. Choose one and that is your Frankenstein's Monster of choice for the day. Next day you can choose a different Monster.

Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

NextLevel · Apr 21, 2016

ZJK can't really lob/fish, Xu Xin isn't comfortable with his backhand, and Fan Zhendong is not a master of serves and short pushes (generally inexperienced). But Ma Long? Even chop blocking is up his alley. Ma Long is a true Frankenstein monster. A guy posted a dimensions analysis chart where they looked at top players. Ma Long was the only one with no weak dimensions (scored high in every dimension).

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 21, 2016

The other 3 might not be complete. But they are so good at what they do that, they sort of are Frankenstein Monsters anyway. Hahaha.

Even if they don't do everything they still are crazy monster players.

Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

NextLevel · Apr 21, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
The other 3 might not be complete. But they are so good at what they do that, they sort of are Frankenstein Monsters anyway. Hahaha.

Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

As we all know, they are CNT robots designed by Dr Liu to take over the world.

ttmonster · Apr 21, 2016

I think ZJK's father did not teach him to Lob / fish on purpose

so that he has to play his backhand close to the table.

The problem with Xu Xin its different, FZD is definitely a complete player , and he has time ...

With Ma Long , I still think his close to table game is not at the same level as ZJK . He tries to maul people with his power on the forehand but if somebody can move it around close to the table , he has to fall back. You can see ZJK sort him out when his serve receive is on the spot.

NextLevel said:
ZJK can't really lob/fish, Xu Xin isn't comfortable with his backhand, and Fan Zhendong is not a master of serves and short pushes (generally inexperienced). But Ma Long? Even chop blocking is up his alley. Ma Long is a true Frankenstein monster. A guy posted a dimensions analysis chart where they looked at top players. Ma Long was the only one with no weak dimensions (scored high in every dimension).

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 21, 2016

Gouliangenstein's Monsters.

Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

NextLevel · Apr 21, 2016

ttmonster said:
I think ZJK's father did not teach him to Lob / fish on purpose so that he has to play his backhand close to the table.

The problem with Xu Xin its different, FZD is definitely a complete player , and he has time ...

With Ma Long , I still think his close to table game is not at the same level as ZJK . He tries to maul people with his power on the forehand but if somebody can move it around close to the table , he has to fall back. You can see ZJK sort him out when his serve receive is on the spot.

That's like saying that because you have the second best short push in the world, your short push is weak. Ask Xu Xin and Ovtcharov about Ma Long's short pushes. Or ask Oshima about Ma Long's pushing game in general. There was even a match where Ma Long blocked down Xu Xin so much that it was funny to watch. It was almost like teaching Kenta how you really block down Xu Xin.

ttmonster · Apr 21, 2016

Of course

NextLevel said:
That's like saying that because you have the second best short push in the world, your short push is weak. Ask Xu Xin and Ovtcharov about Ma Long's short pushes. Or ask Oshima about Ma Long's pushing game in general. There was even a match where Ma Long blocked down Xu Xin so much that it was funny to watch. It was almost like teaching Kenta how you really block down Xu Xin.

anchorschmidt · Apr 21, 2016

NextLevel said:
ZJK can't really lob/fish, Xu Xin isn't comfortable with his backhand, and Fan Zhendong is not a master of serves and short pushes (generally inexperienced). But Ma Long? Even chop blocking is up his alley. Ma Long is a true Frankenstein monster. A guy posted a dimensions analysis chart where they looked at top players. Ma Long was the only one with no weak dimensions (scored high in every dimension).

Oh, I would love to have a look at that chart if possible

Ma Long was not always this complete though. It's amazing how far he has come since 2013. Wang Hao could take his short game apart in big games. I think ZJK's short game is still superior to Ma Long's but his injuries have resulted in a much weaker forehand than he used to have. Otherwise I would have said that ZJK is the more complete player.

Didn't Simon Gauzy say in his podcast that Xu Xin's serves were the hardest to read?

NextLevel · Apr 21, 2016

anchorschmidt said:
Oh, I would love to have a look at that chart if possible

Ma Long was not always this complete though. It's amazing how far he has come since 2013. Wang Hao could take his short game apart in big games. I think ZJK's short game is still superior to Ma Long's but his injuries have resulted in a much weaker forehand than he used to have. Otherwise I would have said that ZJK is the more complete player.

Didn't Simon Gauzy say in his podcast that Xu Xin's serves were the hardest to read?

Freitas gave it to Ma Long. As did Boll. People look too hard at the third ball forehand but forget that you only get that chance with the serves. That's why WLQ was not a third ball master.

ajtatosmano2 · Apr 21, 2016

IMO Ma Long has an equal BH in rallies to ZJK. In fast Bh-Bh exchanges ML is even better. He don't loop that hard as ZJK but his Bh is very stable.

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