Difference between a 2100 and a professional?

kukamonga · May 11, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
I left that cause Wally is a great guy and he makes me laugh a lot. But, um, yeah......I won't put a number on it, but not 2500.

I don't know him or his career but it seems at the time he played these ittf tournaments he trained a lot.
Maybe that was enough to put him in 2500.
I put him there cause if you look at his match vs liang jingkun and compare that with brian pace vs fang bo there seems to be a world of difference.
But maybe it's much easier to play liang than to play fang bo, who knows.

MegaZZ · May 11, 2016

I happen to be a professional level chess player and I am pretty sure the USATT and a lot of other sport rating systems are based on the "Elo" system with some adaptations according to each discipline. The difference between 2100 and 2500-2600 in chess is CONSISTENCY. My level in table tennis is more like 1800-2000 level, I still think it's the same answer though.

UpSideDownCarl · May 11, 2016

kukamonga said:
I don't know him or his career but it seems at the time he played these ittf tournaments he trained a lot.
Maybe that was enough to put him in 2500.
I put him there cause if you look at his match vs liang jingkun and compare that with brian pace vs fang bo there seems to be a world of difference.
But maybe it's much easier to play liang than to play fang bo, who knows.

Wally has something holding him back. He can barely walk. One of his hips has major damage. I have heard it said that he was shot in the hip but I never heard him say that.

His highest rating was 2321. Most of the time between 2006 and 2010 he was between 2200-2299. Every so often he dropped below 2200. Once in a while he popped over 2300. But he was mostly in the 2200 range. But for a guy who can barely walk, that means there are certain things he does way better than your average 2300 level player. So, there are certain things about his game that are higher level than his overall rating.

NextLevel · May 11, 2016

MegaZZ said:
I happen to be a professional level chess player and I am pretty sure the USATT and a lot of other sport rating systems are based on the "Elo" system with some adaptations according to each discipline. The difference between 2100 and 2500-2600 in chess is CONSISTENCY. My level in table tennis is more like 1800-2000 level, I still think it's the same answer though.

Hmm.. what's your ELO? I doubt a professional level chess player would ever say that, to be honest. It's far more than consistency. Just the amount of patterns and plays that 2500 level chess players (Strong IMs and weak GMs) can summon from memory far outstrips anything that exists at the 2100 level. I quite chess at a level similar to what I currently perform at in TT.

kukamonga · May 11, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
Wally has something holding him back. He can barely walk. One of his hips has major damage. I have heard it said that he was shot in the hip but I never heard him say that.

His highest rating was 2321. Most of the time between 2006 and 2010 he was between 2200-2299. Every so often he dropped below 2200. Once in a while he popped over 2300. But he was mostly in the 2200 range. But for a guy who can barely walk, that means there are certain things he does way better than your average 2300 level player. So, there are certain things about his game that are higher level than his overall rating.

yes but his game with liang was in 2013, so he had 3 years to train.
I think you can go from 2300 to 2500 if you train three years intensively.
still, in his game vs liang he did some good rallies and it seemed at least like they could play together.
fang bo vs pace or li the difference seemed too much.

ttmonster · May 11, 2016

You have to also take into account the style match up and the fact that at that point Fang Bo was much more accomplished interms of his standing within the CNT compared to Liang ....

kukamonga said:
yes but his game with liang was in 2013, so he had 3 years to train.
I think you can go from 2300 to 2500 if you train three years intensively.
still, in his game vs liang he did some good rallies and it seemed at least like they could play together.
fang bo vs pace or li the difference seemed too much.

kukamonga · May 11, 2016

ttmonster said:
You have to also take into account the style match up and the fact that at that point Fang Bo was much more accomplished interms of his standing within the CNT compared to Liang ....

yes I said it before, maybe fang bo is just another level.
but still, wally looked pretty good to me.

UpSideDownCarl · May 11, 2016

kukamonga said:
yes but his game with liang was in 2013, so he had 3 years to train.
I think you can go from 2300 to 2500 if you train three years intensively.
still, in his game vs liang he did some good rallies and it seemed at least like they could play together.
fang bo vs pace or li the difference seemed too much.

Nah, I know Wally pretty well. His level has not changed much in that time period.

But he is a guy who has a lot of pride and can turn it on and play above his level. Ghetto power. He likes to say that when he goes to Japan he has to be 2900 because everyone knows him there and thinks he is a star because of the video game and the fact that he is a celebrity there.

With a healthy hip I do think he could be decently higher level than he is. But he is still darn good.

Jabugo · May 12, 2016

cakezxc280 said:
You still dont get it. Let me break it down real simple for you.

Schlager is obviously PHYSICALLY slower, but due to his "strategies and experience", as you stated, he wouldn't need to move/adjust his position as much as Ho to pull off a good shot/block because he knows exactly what's going to happen next and where the ball will end up. So, with less adjustments needed, schlager can make sure he hit the ball at the optimal timing, and that's the "faster" im talking about here.

Basically, being able to get positioned AND have the time to hit the ball at the optimal timing.

What I said in the previous post meant that Ho either overshot or didnt move enough in the first place and therefore needed to adjust for his position after the ball has went past the net, thus he could only hit the ball at a later than optimal timing resulting in a bad shot/straight up error.

Get it now? The speed i am talking about isn't your physical spped, but its made up of a plethora of different things, be it experience, feel to the ball, strategies, footwork, reaction timing you name it, that will result in you getting to the ball earlier to hit it at a good timing.

I said specifically in the first post that this is the best description one can come up with if hes to boil down all the difference into ONE thing.

Speed, anticipation, ability to read the shot... footwork, timing, ....
When you group everything together and then call it "speed", I don't think that's ONE thing anymore.
There is a distinct difference between using the word speed versus strategy.
There's no need to be condescending.

Gene Tuttle · May 12, 2016

Jabugo said:
Speed, anticipation, ability to read the shot... footwork, timing, ....
When you group everything together and then call it "speed", I don't think that's ONE thing anymore.
There is a distinct difference between using the word speed versus strategy.
There's no need to be condescending.

Speaking to the footwork portion I noticed something when "listening" to a previously posted video and comparing it to what I saw and heard from watching the 2100-2600 rated players on video.This video has little crowd noise so you can hear the frequency that the top players move their feet. They are running in place the entire point. Check out the video but look away from the ball and table and look at their feet and listen to the drumbeat they make and compare it to the lower rated players in other videos and the top rated players when they play the lower rated players.

UpSideDownCarl · May 12, 2016

Gene Tuttle said:
Speaking to the footwork portion I noticed something when "listening" to a previously posted video and comparing it to what I saw and heard from watching the 2100-2600 rated players on video.This video has little crowd noise so you can hear the frequency that the top players move their feet. They are running in place the entire point. Check out the video but look away from the ball and table and look at their feet and listen to the drumbeat they make and compare it to the lower rated players in other videos and the top rated players when they play the lower rated players.

I'll tell you what: that is as good a match and you can get.

kukamonga · May 12, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
Nah, I know Wally pretty well. His level has not changed much in that time period.

But he is a guy who has a lot of pride and can turn it on and play above his level. Ghetto power. He likes to say that when he goes to Japan he has to be 2900 because everyone knows him there and thinks he is a star because of the video game and the fact that he is a celebrity there.

With a healthy hip I do think he could be decently higher level than he is. But he is still darn good.

are you saying wally green's level is higher than brian pace's by a high margin?

cakezxc280 · May 12, 2016

Jabugo said:
Speed, anticipation, ability to read the shot... footwork, timing, ....
When you group everything together and then call it "speed", I don't think that's ONE thing anymore.
There is a distinct difference between using the word speed versus strategy.
There's no need to be condescending.

Is it not? Lets use a different analogy.
Is speed a deciding factor in motorsports? DUH. But hey, so is strategy, just look at how many times Rosberg took Hamilton with a better pit strategy. But at the end of the day, you have to be quicker overall to win a race, doesn't matter if you have a faster car or a better pit/tyre strategy. See where i am going here?

MegaZZ · May 12, 2016

NextLevel said:
Hmm.. what's your ELO? I doubt a professional level chess player would ever say that, to be honest. It's far more than consistency. Just the amount of patterns and plays that 2500 level chess players (Strong IMs and weak GMs) can summon from memory far outstrips anything that exists at the 2100 level. I quite chess at a level similar to what I currently perform at in TT.

Hehe, I believe my latest ELO is 2541 in chess and yes I am a GM...but you are right that I am not a professional chess player and I suspect for a similar reason that many 2500 table tennis players are not professionals. Simply can't make a good living at this standard!

jedimasterplk · May 12, 2016

MegaZZ said:
Hehe, I believe my latest ELO is 2541 in chess and yes I am a GM...but you are right that I am not a professional chess player and I suspect for a similar reason that many 2500 table tennis players are not professionals. Simply can't make a good living at this standard!

Wow. I am suitably impressed MegaZZ - hat off to you. This forum keeps throwing up the most unexpected, and unusual, surprises...

Gene Tuttle · May 12, 2016

jedimasterplk said:
Wow. I am suitably impressed MegaZZ - hat off to you. This forum keeps throwing up the most unexpected, and unusual, surprises...

I am impressed MegaZZ as a former 1900 rated chess player I found it hard to keep my best options clear move to move. I would have my plan clearly in my head quite a few moves ahead then lose my concentration and my decision tree after my opponent moved. At least in Table Tennis the variables are limited and the mistakes happen because of my coordination and timing , not my mental clarity.

NextLevel · May 12, 2016

MegaZZ said:
Hehe, I believe my latest ELO is 2541 in chess and yes I am a GM...but you are right that I am not a professional chess player and I suspect for a similar reason that many 2500 table tennis players are not professionals. Simply can't make a good living at this standard!

Hahahaha - now I know who you are - not that many GMs in Australia. I used to be USCHESS 1900 (probably 1700-1800 ELO) and I used to read a lot of Ian Rogers articles. I never trained at an age when it mattered and we didn't have the computers back then people have today to get good back where I lived. At least, I can understand what you mean by consistency now - I just wouldn't put it that way.

songdavid98 · May 13, 2016

MegaZZ said:
Hehe, I believe my latest ELO is 2541 in chess and yes I am a GM...but you are right that I am not a professional chess player and I suspect for a similar reason that many 2500 table tennis players are not professionals. Simply can't make a good living at this standard!

OP Here.

I tip my hat to you; you must have quite the passion for your game. I don't have a chess rating, although I've been described as 1400, nowhere near competitive.

I know that chess and ping pong has their differences, but ping pong has been referred to as physical chess

When you say consistency is the factor, do you mean that you are more familiar with the ways a game can play out and the appropriate responses? For example, you know the book moves for different openings and gambits, like the Ruy Lopez or the Sicilian defense, but you can also respond very optimally to the different variations that can play out. Same with pawn placement, midgame and endgame strategies(mate with bishop and knight? I recently learned how

). And taking advantage of blunders and weaknesses.

I say this because I'm thinking that professionals can deal with various scenarios much more optimally than those 2100-2300 players. Theoretically, the pros are much more familiar with serves, service return, short game, openers(flips, flicks, loops, etc), handling openers, counter attacking, and off-the-table play. Same with the spin, speed, and placement variations of those shots.

I would imagine that you mean that being able to consistently make optimal plays would seem professional.

I can't disagree with that.

Looking at games between professionals, there are undeniably mistakes everywhere.

I realize that both players are trying to make optimal plays. Somebody has got to win out(Unstoppable spear and an impenetrable shield, anyone?). One player might be more optimal and more consistent. Also, nobody is perfect.

Time to go pro guys, we've cracked the code. We just have to be familiar with absolutely EVERYTHING(well, mostly everything)!

MegaZZ · May 13, 2016

2100 vs 2500 chess and tt

Thanks for all the compliments guys! I am a bit surprised how many fellow chess players there seems to be on this TT forum

Nowadays I am teaching young students more and more - I was thinking of how more experienced chess players know opening theory, typical middlegames, endgames and technical aspects including planning and raw calculation. In chess terms it seems to me 2500 vs 2100 it a great gulf because pretty much in every single aspect the 2500 is at least not weaker and probably in several domains are much better.

I am not sure how to categorise table tennis skills exactly - but to me watching what I presume to be 2100 vs 2500 or better players I see that -
stronger players have a more consistent and varied attack in the first 3-5 balls (analogous to knowing and understanding multiple chess openings well?), then lets say if the table tennis rally goes longer then it's analogous to the middlegame/endgame phase in chess and the relevant skills of planning and calculation come to the fore. It seems to me pro tt players play the order of serves in each set in a well planned manner and also may change serves completely in different sets (for instance Ma Long mostly starts with pendulum serves and then throws in the set with the high toss spin/no spin or reverse pendulum). They seem to know with a higher consistency when to throw in the long serves, the no spins and when not to. I guess this is strategising/planning. The calculation during the rallies are blitz like compared with chess of course but still it seems all the pro players play a certain serve and have a reasonable ability to predict the next 3-4 balls and every now and then maybe even more.

"Consistency" is definitely too narrow a term to describe all the differences between a 2100 and 2500 in chess and table tennis as of course creativity and intuition and reflexes just to mention a few things are not covered at all. Still that was the best short answer I could think of when relating my overall chess and table tennis experiences.

I am sure if we get to the nitty gritty we can generate a long list of differences - and then there are things like different types of rubbers and blades in tt which I can't find no real analogy with chess at all. What do you guys think?

songdavid98 · May 14, 2016

MegaZZ said:
Thanks for all the compliments guys! I am a bit surprised how many fellow chess players there seems to be on this TT forum

Nowadays I am teaching young students more and more - I was thinking of how more experienced chess players know opening theory, typical middlegames, endgames and technical aspects including planning and raw calculation. In chess terms it seems to me 2500 vs 2100 it a great gulf because pretty much in every single aspect the 2500 is at least not weaker and probably in several domains are much better.

I am not sure how to categorise table tennis skills exactly - but to me watching what I presume to be 2100 vs 2500 or better players I see that -
stronger players have a more consistent and varied attack in the first 3-5 balls (analogous to knowing and understanding multiple chess openings well?), then lets say if the table tennis rally goes longer then it's analogous to the middlegame/endgame phase in chess and the relevant skills of planning and calculation come to the fore. It seems to me pro tt players play the order of serves in each set in a well planned manner and also may change serves completely in different sets (for instance Ma Long mostly starts with pendulum serves and then throws in the set with the high toss spin/no spin or reverse pendulum). They seem to know with a higher consistency when to throw in the long serves, the no spins and when not to. I guess this is strategising/planning. The calculation during the rallies are blitz like compared with chess of course but still it seems all the pro players play a certain serve and have a reasonable ability to predict the next 3-4 balls and every now and then maybe even more.

"Consistency" is definitely too narrow a term to describe all the differences between a 2100 and 2500 in chess and table tennis as of course creativity and intuition and reflexes just to mention a few things are not covered at all. Still that was the best short answer I could think of when relating my overall chess and table tennis experiences.

I am sure if we get to the nitty gritty we can generate a long list of differences - and then there are things like different types of rubbers and blades in tt which I can't find no real analogy with chess at all. What do you guys think?

After a few hours of ping pong, I used to play board games with my friends, chess and chinese chess included. That might explain the correlation of chess and ping pong players.

Consistent optimal play includes lots of other factors. If chess and ping pong were to compare, it would be a series of blitz games, first to 11 wins the game.

In a post on the first page of this thread, Baal mentioned how pro players can predict and accurately judge the trajectory of the ball much better. Finding patterns and adapting to the opponent is probably another factor. Especially if you were to play at least 11 blitz chess games with someone, trying to find optimal plays. MegaZZ, what do you think about this?

Matt Hetherington mentions execution, confidence, and reliability, along with playing by the probabilities through match experience.
Dan mentions match experience and total ball control, while picking on weaknesses.

Difference between a 2100 and a professional?

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