Equipment or technique: not getting enough spin

The slow-mo is good stuff. Really surprised at the quality of the video.


If you look at your serve, I think you can see that you're hitting into the ball. To brush, you're going to need to pull/push along the ball, right? So, how are we going to accomplish that?

First off, I think you should really change your racket angle. You've probably seen Fan Zhendong, Zhang Jike and whatnot serve with a very vertical racket, and you're trying to copy it. I suggest you adopt a more horizontal racket, because brushing is tremendously easier with that method.

Hold the racket level to the horizon with your serve grip, throw the ball up and try to time your slice so that you brush the ball. Keep doing that, and do it everyday, all the time. Keep your wrist and arm relaxed, and practice brushing when relaxed. If you feel you don't have enough control and need to tense up: don't. You will be a little bit better tomorrow, and it'll get easier fast.

Do simple serves onto the ground and try to get the ball to come back to you. Don't worry about the ball bouncing too high for now: just focus on spin.

Get a marker and draw a line going along the ball, then color one side with the marker. This will let you see the spin pretty clearly. Try to achieve a very pure backspin in your serves. In match play you're probably going to want to add a sidespin, but you're not gonna be able to do that consistently until you can produce just backspin.

Chances are, most of the time you think you're serving back or topspin, but it's really just sidespin. You will understand the timing for different spins as you serve more with the colored ball.

Start easy and simple, and focus on trying to serve heavy first, then control that spin to get the placement you want.

Don't rush it: I've been serving at the very least a hundred balls a day for two years straight and I'm just now getting my serves to a level where I'm somewhat satisfied.

Good stuff @Tyler .

May I ask you where you are based in the US ? I am just thinking if somebody here lives close to you can show you stuff in person it might help you get better quicker .

Anyways, the video is great and helps uncover some of your issues. I will let others comment but my only suggestion at this time is to relax your arm when you are playing your shots .

Try to use a very relaxed forearm and loose wrist. At no point should your shoulder stiffen up.


Can you please try this out and post a video of yourself .

That's great Tyler. Looking forward to seeing your video. For now, I would advise just keep thinking about having the pressure points on the paddle, your forefinger should be adding pressure to the the rubber when you are playing forehand and thumb should be pressuring the rubber when playing backhand. Your wrist should be loose and forearm and shoulder relaxed. This along with a conscious effort to brush the ball in all your stroke should help you....

I am based out of cali , I am sure you will be able to find somebody helpful in florida , lets hope somebody responds here ..

Tyler Vazquez said:

I'm in central Florida. An hour southeast of Orlando near cape canaveral/cocoa beach.

I'll post a video of myself playing an opponent on Thursday hopefully.

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You see, Tyler, now you have posted videos, I can see that you are not using the arm properly and I can post you videos that show you how to use the arm properly. Doesn't mean it will be easy to do it, and doesn';t mean it won't be easier to show you in person but I can be sure that what I am posting is relevant. But I think what I posted above is easy - it just is hard to do it and time the ball correctly but that comes with practice.

First piece of information:

ArcMan's observation that you are banging into the ball instead of brushing past it is correct.

Pretty much everything else he said, try to ignore it because he is about the same level as you, learning to brush as well and, well, he's just off base on most of what he said.

Ex: it is much easier for most people to brush, at least when learning, on a serve, with the racket close to vertical. This is because you don't have to be as precise when the racket is almost vertical you don't have to be as precise. If you contact is a fraction late or early you can still brush. But with the blade face parallel to the ground if you contact is a fraction early you miss the ball and if it is a fraction late you don't brush.

Anyway, let me see if I can find something that helps you see what brushing is. But on your self hitting strokes there looks like there is probably some brush. And on your serve you are banging into the ball a little too directly.


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The info NextLevel posted is good and important too. That is about stroke mechanics.

This is about really brushing: first, it is hard. You have to be VERY PRECISE. You have to use the rubber from the topsheet to grab the ball even though you barely touch it.

That video of the wheel that I posted, that is sort of the idea.

The exercises this guy is doing towards the beginning of the video are things you could practice to get the feel of brush contact. At a certain point it just becomes second nature. But it is very precise so it takes a while to learn how to do this solidly.


I don't like the name of the video. Because it is not Ma Lin's serve. But the information from the video is good and could help you feel the contact of brushing and pulling the blade face past the ball while the ball is on the rubber. But then you will need to sort out how to get it for looping by going over the ball too.


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Other than using the arm correctly, what I will say is that many beginners and even intermediate players underestimate what is possible with practice. They tend to just get spin with a motion and thinking that doing the same thing will get better and get them more spin. It doesn't quite work that way. You have to use correct technique and continue to push the correct technique to its boundaries on both extremes(high and low) on speed and timing of the swing. As you experiment continually and push things to their limits, you start to see and experience things that you might have thought were impossible. The thing is that you will probably not be able to produce that result every time but once you know how it feels, then the drive is how to make it consistent. I don't recommend that approach for rally strokes per se unless you are physically healthy, but I can find no reason why something as easy to practice as a serve or an attempt to spin the ball should not result in you whiffing or overhitting at least 50% of the balls on your initial attempts to get extremely good results.

Whenever I see a person trying to improve their technique but not missing any shots badly relative to the goal, I know the person is not really trying.

Carl, isn't the idea of learning to serve with a horizontal racket first to A: Avoid banging the ball into the table as every beginner does with a vertical racket and B: To develop said timing?

Sure, you can brush more reliably if your timing is off if you use a very open racket angle: but have you actually seen what a cheap FZD serve imitation looks like from the hands of a learning player? I do not understand how that would be good for development.

@ ArcMan, you are about the same level as Tyler, perhaps your touch is actually 2 levels worse than his. His self hit stroke is not any better than yours. Perhaps there are more mechanical issues. But his contact and touch on the strokes seems considerably better than yours.

You can learn to brush with the racket close to vertical or close to horizontal. But you said he shouldn't try to learn with the racket at the angle he has it at because it is harder. I explained why the racket at that angle is EASIER.

But notice, I posted a video where the racket was not vertical for practicing brush. I was just making sure Tyler knew you are not the expert you think you are. You are an enthusiastic learner whose level is probably pretty close to the same as Tyler's.

@NextLevel: I think trying hard is a good thing. We don't disagree. I also think missing is fine if you do the technique well. Those things sort themselves out.

I just wanted to make sure Tyler knew how to categorize ArcMan's comment. Because the part about not brushing and banging into the ball was good. And the rest was stuff that could and should be ignored. At least in my opinion.

Learning the touch of brush contact can be a long and painful experience. As you practice and feel it, it slowly sinks into your nervous system and muscle memory. The more you practice the better.


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UpSideDownCarl said:

@NextLevel: I think trying hard is a good thing. We don't disagree. I also think missing is fine if you do the technique well. Those things sort themselves out.

I just wanted to make sure Tyler knew how to categorize ArcMan's comment. Because the part about not brushing and banging into the ball was good. And the rest was stuff that could and should be ignored. At least in my opinion.

Learning the touch of brush contact can be a long and painful experience. As you practice and feel it, it slowly sinks into your nervous system and muscle memory. The more you practice the better.


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Arcman was not even in my thought process, sorry. At this point, anyone who takes him seriously is either unfortunate, doesn't read the web board closely or is getting a heavy dose of what they deserve.

NextLevel said:

Arcman was not even in my thought process, sorry. At this point, anyone who takes him seriously is either unfortunate, doesn't read the web board closely or is getting a heavy dose of what they deserve.

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Hahaha. Yeah. And I figured, Tyler, with only 7 posts, could have missed that ArcMan presents information on things he's never done or tried. Like posting information on how to play choppers when he has never played a real chopper.

So, yeah, you got it. Hahaha.

And trying to learn to brush with information that is bad could make that hard process much harder than necessary.


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Carl, I must apologize, you're right. For a bare beginner, learning first with 45deg is probably best.

When do you think someone should learn to do a serve with a more horizontal racket face, then?