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    1. Top | #21
      ttmonster is offline
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      This is an excellent video gman4911 . Deserves a thread of its own !

    2. Top | #22
      ttbatman is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by gman4911 View Post
      Here is the ITTF Umpire Training Video - Hand Signals for Illegal Serves



      It includes camera shots of various illegal serves from different angles, including from the umpire's position.


      This is the relevant rule:


      "Not clearly legal" implies doubt or not sure about it's legality. So if there is any doubt or if not sure about it's legality, it's supposed to be deemed incorrect. Instead, the umpires have been giving the players the benefit of the doubt which is opposite what the rule states!
      Great vid, maybe the umpires and players should be shown this before every tournament.
      I'm ttbatman

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    4. Top | #23
      bzing is offline
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      I'm personally against being overly strict about serve rules such as perfectly vertically tossed ball or hiding the ball etc. Many umpires don't understand how these players are just so used to serving that way it's impossible for them to suddenly change it and serve more "appropriately". They don't do it on purpose. It is so deeply rooted in their technique it is just part of their service, they're used to it and other players just have to learn how to receive it instead of complaining and accusing of illegal service all the time.
      Last edited by bzing; 05-10-2016 at 02:46 PM.

    5. Top | #24
      ttmonster is offline
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      Are you joking or are you serious ? Just asking because none of the arguments you made makes sense, its like saying that because in cricket Shoaib Akhtar has grown up chucking so let him throw 100+ mph bouncers at batsmen and batsmen should just get used to it , or let Murali spin the ball at 90 degrees
      Quote Originally Posted by bzing View Post
      I'm personally against being overly strict about serve rules such as perfectly vertically tossed ball or hiding the ball etc. Many umpires don't understand how these players are just so used to serving that way it's impossible for them to suddenly change it and serve more "appropriately". They don't do it on purpose. It is so deeply rooted in their technique it is just part of their service, they're used to it and other players just have to learn how to receive it instead of complaining and accusing of illegal service all the time.

    6. Top | #25
      bzing is offline
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      I'm talking about some of the unfair umpires like that umpire idiot that Michael Maze had to come across such as in the match against Xu Xin which got Michael Maze spurious.

    7. Top | #26
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      Well, my only concern about elimination of serve hiding is that with the advent of banana flick from anywhere the game can be completely dominated by the receiver, like volleyball. Which can be bad. At the same time, I suspect that pros just don't care about hiding the serve because I guess they practice against it all the time. There was even a video from CNT with Liu Guoliang serving for the players and hiding it with his free hand. Next time Dan interviews some pro, we should definitely submit some questions about it

    8. Top | #27
      ttmonster is offline
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      no bzing, the by definition a rule has to be the same for everybody. If there is a rule and the umpire is implementing it , as long as he/she does it equally for both people in that particular match it should be okay.
      I will have to go check the match you are talking about, but Xu Xin is not a saint either and he definitely has a questionable action especially with his short underspin , no spin variation . I remember a match where even Vladi got angry on Xu Xin and started copying his action. It would have been even harder for Vladi to see the ball compared to Maze because he is right handed. Maze may have been furious because he felt the umpire was not implementing the rule uniformly .


      Quote Originally Posted by bzing View Post
      I'm talking about some of the unfair umpires like that umpire idiot that Michael Maze had to come across such as in the match against Xu Xin which got Michael Maze spurious.

    9. Top | #28
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      Illia , the banana backhand was always there, what was not there was the footwork/backhand to support that. If you check older videos a lot of european players like peter korbel or even persson who had a good backhand was doing this a long time before ZJK reinvented it . ZJK is just the first in the new generation of Chinese players that had a backhand and footwork to support that.

      Now just because there is an advancement in the technique of receiving serve means that you are going to allow the server undue advantage. And even if the ITTF decides to it has to make the rule and implement it uniformly.
      If they see that the rule is not being implemented uniformly , they should to talk to the umpires , address their concerns. At this point they are just passing the buck on the umpires. That is what is deplorable.

      IMO currently the umpires are not positioned well enough to tell whether the serve was legal or illegal. They need more eyes to implement it correctly. Why else do you think they have so many line judges in tennis ?


      Quote Originally Posted by Ilia Minkin View Post
      Well, my only concern about elimination of serve hiding is that with the advent of banana flick from anywhere the game can be completely dominated by the receiver, like volleyball. Which can be bad. At the same time, I suspect that pros just don't care about hiding the serve because I guess they practice against it all the time. There was even a video from CNT with Liu Guoliang serving for the players and hiding it with his free hand. Next time Dan interviews some pro, we should definitely submit some questions about it

    10. Top | #29
      gman4911 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by bzing View Post
      I'm personally against being overly strict about serve rules such as perfectly vertically tossed ball or hiding the ball etc. Many umpires don't understand how these players are just so used to serving that way it's impossible for them to suddenly change it and serve more "appropriately".
      That's nonsense. Look at Jan-Ove Waldner, who played during the hidden serve era. He made the transition without any problems. Timo Boll and Vladimir Samsonov achieved high rankings without using hidden serves. A lot of the younger players never played during the hidden serve era so they really have no excuse other than the need to cheat to win.
      They don't do it on purpose.
      If you do an analysis of some of the younger players who've risen in the rankings fairly rapidly, you will find that it coincides with their increased use of illegal serves. That and the fact that umpires aren't calling them on it allows them to become brazen about it. Their mentality is as long as the umpire doesn't call it, they will continue using it. So yes, they are doing it purposely.

    11. Top | #30
      ttbatman is offline
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      I really believe that in order to rectify this problem they need to either stick with the rule or just scrap it. If they are going for the former point then they need to try and stamp it out at a younger age (U15s) and bring in another two officials to be able to determine whether a foul serve should be called. But my personal opinion is that they could avoid making a lot of people angry by just scraping the rule and making sure the main ones such as not hiding the ball when serving are kept.

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