"Euro" vs "Chinese" Play Style

Epid3xia said:

Well I don't expect someone who is not young and athletic anymore to be an accurate measurment if a play style has more potential or not because anyone who is younger and more athletic will play better with any style.

Click to expand...

My only response is that even though I don't move as fast as I used to, I am not blind and can see how other people manage to beat themselves -- often when I am watching other people's matches.

Know that as you get older you have to learn to exploit opponent's weaknesses. One I see a lot is players who try to play like Ma Long when they have nothing close to the necessary skill level. One thing I have learned to exploit is an opponent's tendency to go off balance, but I also have to to maximize my own stability. That means I have to emulate very balanced players like Primorac and Appelgren, because trying to play like Ma Long is out of the question. I study those guys a lot. Obviously, that's not advice for teenagers (although there are a few very flashy ones at my club who still haven't figured out why I beat them every single time).

So if you are young and athletic then you can certainly develop a heavily forehand based game with the complete body stroke top Chinese players have perfected. Just know that there are some liabilities to it and you are going to have to train multiballs like crazy to achieve the required footwork stability. If you can do it, it will be a great weapon. Everybody needs one good weapon.

I'll added to this, chinese players are some what perfect for table tennis ranging about 5'6 to 5'9 , weight about 160 to 175 lbs. Training started at very young age, about 5 to 7 yrs old as the earliest. Everyday about 3 years all the kids are doing forehand and back hand techniques , multi balls and lots of footwork. 8 hours a day training. Have u notice ? Those chinese national team top players, like zjk, ml, fzd, xx, fb, look at their legs ? And look at those europeans ? Very tall and skinny and spreading their legs very wide to stand , most of the time just reach out and hit the ball because of their wing span is so wide. They wont required to slide or shifting much; therefore they become very stagnant players vs chinese players are much smaller but compact and powerful at their legs , those combinations are deadly in table tennis. Short quick burst of power and acceleration,agility, bending legs and knees lowest to the ground to loop with long stroke starting from back left side of their waist and finish above their forehead(RIGHT HAND PLAYER )SOMETIME A BIT FURTHER =full swing loop motion + the very sticky rubber=super heavy top spin. Most matches chinese vs european there are lots of that counter loop away from the table. Most of the chinese players are winning those critical and lungs buster points take it right out of your opponenets.

Alright, sorry, but the conversation is silly because Epid3xia is a bit naive and seems insistent on not understanding certain basic things.

1) if the style you are saying is so good and it is just the "style", why can Baal beat guys who play that style by exploiting the fact that they over-swing and then are not ready for what comes back?

So, here: if you took any area in the world and had as many people, and the national sport was table tennis, so everyone loves to play, and the GOVERNMENT talent scouts and RECRUITS children at the age of 4 looking for children who could potentially become top players. And takes those kids they scouted and puts them in special schools by 5 where, 8 hours a day, 6 days a week, they train table tennis and of the hundreds of kids recruited only a very small number make it to the top (6-8 out of 50,000) and the parents of kids all thought the region would be happy for their kid to get selected EVEN THOUGH IT WOULD MEAN THEY WOULD NOT GET TO SEE THEIR KID almost at all for years, they would still love the opportunity because it could mean wealth and stardom, and even for the ones who don't become top tier players, it still is lucrative.

If you had a region somewhere else in the world that did that and had those circumstances, it would not matter what style those kids were trained in.

And if this whole idea of the Chinese style is really such an issue how did the late 1980s and early to mid 1990s happen where Sweden and Europe dominated the sport?

How could the Europeans do that if the Chinese style is simply better?

I know a few guys who are Chinese who are great players. They are from China and they are 2500 level players. They are here in the USA, in NYC to coach because they were not good enough in China to play. But they went through that process. Thy were trained from 5 years old. And when they play other 2500 level players who play other styles including what you are calling the "Euro" style, THEY LOSE to players the same level as they are 50% of the time. Otherwise they would have gone up in level and would be 2600 or 2700 level players.

There are too many factors that Epid3xia is ignoring for this conversation to have much merit. If the only players to be considered are the top Chinese players and the amount of training and the sheer volume of players who didn't make it to that level isn't considered; and if two people the same level like Baal and those kids he always beats or these players who are 2500 some of whom play one style and others who play a different style aren't to be considered because the best players in the world are the best; if the training and selection that got them there, or the quality of the coaching, then why can Baal beat these kids who simply use "Chinese" style and why can't the guys who are 2500 and use "Chinese" style just beat everyone and become top players.

It is so much more than the style.

And if you ask me, as has already been pointed out, ZJK has a kind of "Euro" style of play.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

all throughout the 80's and 90's the chinese took for granted that the europeans are and always will be more powerful at rallying away from the table and that they have to find alternative methods to beat them. namely service and receive, taking control of the point as early as possible by staying closer to the table. to achieve this they needed strong 3rd ball attacks and superior footwork to be able to pressure the opponent from close to the table. those big flashy counter looping forehands are actually a consequence of perfecting a style of play that never had away from the table counter looping as a goal.

At this point when I see the chinese players I don't see they necessarily have a "Chinese technique" . What I observed is that they have a much more fluid technique where mainly in the forehand they can choose to execute different techniques depending on the situation at that point in time. If you look at them warming up , most of them warm up their forehands using what you call "european technique" and once they start playing depending on how much power they choose to put in the ball and their distance from the ball they execute the shot.
However, when you see some european players, they execute the chicken forehand for every shot.

Now even though it seems easy, and the chinese definitely make it look so because of the hours they have put into it , its definitely not a simple skill to acquire and execute at the highest level. IMO obtcharov has been able to achieve this to certain degree on the backhand, where he executes a different backhand when close to the table and even from mid distance he chooses different shots depending on how much power he decides to put and how much time he has.
I feel he has dome some of it on the forehand as well but its nowhere close to what the Chinese are capable of .

This is especially difficult because you are in danger of losing your form when you are trying to execute different shots to different balls. You need to have extremely efficient footwork built into you game to be able to co ordinate different shots to different movements.

So lets just say the Chinese look like they are more natural players but that naturalness has come from thousands of hours of practice form a very young age with competent coaches and govt. resources , coupled with the desperation of making a life with only one single way out ...

i like to put quotation marks whenever i write "chinese style" because i don't look it at as a different style either. it's just that they have better mechanics and can put in more of their bodies into the swing more often.

would you say the koreans play a euro style or a chinese style? how about alexander shibaev's forehand?

ttmonster said:

At this point when I see the chinese players I don't see they necessarily have a "Chinese technique" . What I observed is that they have a much more fluid technique where mainly in the forehand they can choose to execute different techniques depending on the situation at that point in time. If you look at them warming up , most of them warm up their forehands using what you call "european technique" and once they start playing depending on how much power they choose to put in the ball and their distance from the ball they execute the shot.
However, when you see some european players, they execute the chicken forehand for every shot.

Now even though it seems easy, and the chinese definitely make it look so because of the hours they have put into it , its definitely not a simple skill to acquire and execute at the highest level. IMO obtcharov has been able to achieve this to certain degree on the backhand, where he executes a different backhand when close to the table and even from mid distance he chooses different shots depending on how much power he decides to put and how much time he has.
I feel he has dome some of it on the forehand as well but its nowhere close to what the Chinese are capable of .

This is especially difficult because you are in danger of losing your form when you are trying to execute different shots to different balls. You need to have extremely efficient footwork built into you game to be able to co ordinate different shots to different movements.

So lets just say the Chinese look like they are more natural players but that naturalness has come from thousands of hours of practice form a very young age with competent coaches and govt. resources , coupled with the desperation of making a life with only one single way out ...

Click to expand...

And then you focus only on the ones who made it, not the ones who get injured and spit out by the process.

The point you made about having different forehands, especially one for slower balls with a straighter arm and one for faster balls with more bend in the elbow is one that Brett makes very often,

Great men think alike !! ... just kidding ... what is his opinion on the backhand wing, is it more difficult because the start positions and the shots are much more different when you compare the different backhand styles , lets say of a Zhang Jike with Jun Mizutani ( older version of the backhand ) , I have seen Kreanga execute whatever he wants whenever he want but then he is kreanga and has a masseuses to massage his shoulder after every training session .. just remembered seeing this in the documentary about him ...

NextLevel said:

And then you focus only on the ones who made it, not the ones who get injured and spit out by the process.

The point you made about having different forehands, especially one for slower balls with a straighter arm and one for faster balls with more bend in the elbow is one that Brett makes very often,

Click to expand...

It is funny here, a local Chinese coach is definitely emphasizing chicken wing for me (but relaxed and with good hip rotation), even though his 14 year olds are swinging harder. I like this guy a lot. He is not a one-size-fits-all coach.

Also, I suspect that we will seeing European players emerging that look a bit more like Chinese players.

In some ways Werner Schlager had some of that already in the early 2000s.

What style is this one ? Is it Brazilian style because he is named after Zico ?

Epid3xia said:

Well I am very critical and want to hear hard facts. And I don't just accept anything thrown at me. Yes it is a hard fight to win against me in the battle of "euro" vs "chinese" style discussion. But keep fighting maybe in the end you will win. Disprove me and you will win. But first my arguments.

The humongous training of the chinese is no hard fact?
It only shows why they are so dominant. The best talents become the best players in the world and lesser talented players become even ranked over 2500 in other countries. Did you know how "good" they were compared to their other chinese players?

There are "chinese" style kids which Baal always beats.
Well what rank do they have? What rank does Baal have? Do these kids have good coaches who learn these kids how to play propperly "chinese" which would mean knowing how to handle big swings and not get to much out of balance?
A good old clever player can outplay alot of young undeveloped players.

Looking only on a few of the top world class doesn't realy show something.
Well not only but I heard several times from people that were in china that all the leagues in china are much better than in europe and usa. That shows that there are not only a few who get high skill level. Well sure a lot of them have only 2 things in their life. School/work and table tennis and no freetime. But that only shows why all the leagues are so much better.
Why do those few who go to USA not increase and become better? Maybe because they aren't better in china as well.



About Shibaev's forhand: I watched him play against Xu Xin (2015) I think it is mostly "euro style" because most of the time his arm is angled from the beginning of his stroke. But his forhand is different to other "euro" style forhands because he makes a bigger swing.

About the Koreans:
I watched Lee Sangsu vs Xu Xin from 2016. My goodness his forhand is a beauty and his backhand too. I would say his forhand is "oldschool chinese" style like WLQ.
I watched Jung Youngsik vs Ma Long from 2016. His arm is also straight in the beginning and sometimes straight even during his shot and sometimes he bends the arm. Just like the "chinese" style.

Click to expand...

or this one ? I cannot believe I just saw Ma Long training in the European style !!

NextLevel said:

I think it is the number of kids and the amount of training that people like to gloss over. Even players in Europe trained to play in the Chinese way don't get as good as fast.

Click to expand...

The first match between Ma Long and Dima is online. Watch it, they are playing similar to how they are playing today, and quite equal in playing strength. It's only that Ma Long has evolved much faster since then. He has never lost against Dima. He also plays a lot less forehand today.

I agree that the speed of the Chinese players is what makes them superior. It also the lack of easy misses, which I think great footwork is the reason for. I saw Xu Xin play against a promising Swedish player a couple of years ago at the Swedish Open. XX had the same power in the forehand strokes, but he was at perhaps 75% power and the Swede was at 95% power. Who makes more mistakes?

One other major difference is the counterloop. The Chinese will blast you off the court with their counterloops. This is a bit due to the Chinese rubbers, but a lot with speed and timing, and the courage to do so. I'm surprised that so few players have added this skill, since it really is a game-changer.

I would not. I would focus on the fitness and the resulting footwork.

Your definition was partially true 10-15 years back , now its not longer valid. Thats all I am trying to say.

Epid3xia said:

But how would you distinguish both "styles" of forhand?

Click to expand...

Although this talk about style (like how straight your arm should be) is anti-zen and makes for bad table tennis. Read this.

http://www.kendo.org.uk/files/TheUnfetteredMind.pdf Advice from a zen monk to a Samurai swordmaster, late 16th century.

Then train your technique until it is not conscious.

Here is the money quote:

Where should one put the mind?

I answered, "If you put it in your right hand, it will be taken by the right hand and your

body will lack its functioning. If you put your mind in the eye, it will be taken by the eye,
and your body will lack its functioning. If you put your mind in your right foot, your
mind will be taken by the right foot and your body will lack its functioning.
"No matter where you put it, if you put the mind in on place, the rest of your body will
lack its functioning."
"Well, then, where does one put his mind."
I answered, "If you don't put it anywhere, it will go to all parts of your body and extend
throughout its entirety.