Same rubber on both sides for offensive players

I chimed in way to late to get much of the early stuff in this thread, but anyone seeing Baal over the years knows what kind of things disgust him. I see where he can feel that way when someone says you GOTTA do this or that, when there are perfectly serviceable alternatives. So many people choose equipment on the "wrong" or shall we say "inefficient" reasons that might disgust Baal, NL and the Jessie James Posse more the original thread theme did.

I can't be bothered to read through all that but I started with Rasant Powergrip on my forehand and Bluefire M2 on the back, things worked well while I was getting back into table tennis but there was obvious difference with the rubbers one being a flat hitting, hard sponge, low throw rubber and the other high throw, softer, more spinier. There was definitely a hesitation on the robot practice trying to keep up with the difference. The change was also nice to show me how different one from another can be. When I finally sold the Bluefire M2, I went chinese on the forehand and swapped kept the rasant powergrip on the back which fixed my high lift balls that use to fly off the table in simple rallies. Eventually I was given a couple of months old Tenergies and decided to use them after selling the Powergrip as well due to being too hard sponge, taking too much energy to activate the sponge and loosing some games in the lower divisions (handicaps) where consistency was needed. I also decided to master the chicken swing and stick to european fast pace rubbers.
When I went T64 both sides I definitely realized I had a preference of the same rubber on both sides. It definitely eliminated that thinking described by baal, it just felt easier to play and unnecessary to put my mind in this burden with different rubbers. I mean sure you adjust to it but a lot of people EJ and don't stick to rubbers long enough to make it a second nature. At the end I don't know, it's player preference, but if a kid comes to me and wants to learn about table tennis, I would give him a bat with same rubbers on both sides.
On the other hand I can't recommend anyone a chinese rubber on both sides, you will have to use euro on the back to kill balls and keep the pace. I mean there is even a difference between same rubber in 1.7 - 2.2, I think whatever I get next might be in 1.9 because of the stupid plastic ball.

You know at the end of the day, I tried a lot of things from ALL / OFF++, chinese vs euro, thick vs thin, no matter what the choice was equipment was never going to be the answer to fixing technique. The body simply adjusts to whatever you are using and eventually you might fall back into lazy mode and still suffer the same problems with newer "better" equipment. But it's nice to try different things if funds allow you and figure out for yourself what advantages and disadvantages something may have and how you should bring the best out of your setup, while armed with knowledge of the differences.

Many people are using tacky rubber on FH, that's mainly why they look for smth different for BH because they play more flat on BH and tacky rubbers are more difficult to play on flat hits and blocks. I can really understand why people are mostly not using Hurricane on BH for example.....and why they love it on FH. For the same reason I understand why most "special rubbers" like LP or SP are mostly used on BH (not always but most of the time).

There is no "rules", I think that if a rubber provides a good feeling though your hand, it can be good to use it both sides even if it is not suited to your BH "on the paper" (for example you mostly top spin with your FH, you love T05 on FH and you only push/block and do flat hits with your BH, Tenergy 05 doesn't seem well suited for your BH, with its high throw and high sensivity to incomming spin........but if T05 provides you amazing ball touch, if you feel the ball better with T05 than any other rubber........just put T05 on your BH then).

I mostly play with same rubber both side despite my game behind FH oriented (left handed classic FH oriented player).....and I tend to choose smaller tickness on BH for less spin sensitivity but.......now I'm playing with Vega Asia 2.0mm both sides and I'm fine.
Like NextLevel, I think that the concept of "BH rubber" is a chimera, I can understand somehow the concept of FH rubber (Hurricanes ), but the concept of BH rubber, at least for backsides........is not something I can understand.

Killerspintt said:

Many people are using tacky rubber on FH, that's mainly why they look for smth different for BH because they play more flat on BH and tacky rubbers are more difficult to play on flat hits and blocks. I can really understand why people are mostly not using Hurricane on BH for example.....and why they love it on FH. For the same reason I understand why most "special rubbers" like LP or SP are mostly used on BH (not always but most of the time).

There is no "rules", I think that if a rubber provides a good feeling though your hand, it can be good to use it both sides even if it is not suited to your BH "on the paper" (for example you mostly top spin with your FH, you love T05 on FH and you only push/block and do flat hits with your BH, Tenergy 05 doesn't seem well suited for your BH, with its high throw and high sensivity to incomming spin........but if T05 provides you amazing ball touch, if you feel the ball better with T05 than any other rubber........just put T05 on your BH then).

I mostly play with same rubber both side despite my game behind FH oriented (left handed classic FH oriented player).....and I tend to choose smaller tickness on BH for less spin sensitivity but.......now I'm playing with Vega Asia 2.0mm both sides and I'm fine.
Like NextLevel, I think that the concept of "BH rubber" is a chimera, I can understand somehow the concept of FH rubber (Hurricanes ), but the concept of BH rubber, at least for backsides........is not something I can understand.

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When you say you understand the concept of FH rubber but not a BH rubber, a red light went off for me. I see now that my "physical" explanation no longer holds. In fact, there is no FH rubber or BH rubber. There are only stroke style rubbers; i.e. looper rubber, driver rubber, chopper rubber, blocker rubber (and mostly a mix of these with one or two qualities standing out more). Nothing says that we "must" play a standard way for FH or BH. Depending upon the predominant stroke type a player employs on the FH or BH side, we can determine the rubber type that best suits that wing. Say for example, you prefer pushing and chopping on the FH and smash driving on the BH, you might pick long pips on the FH and Bryce Speed on the BH. If you're a two wing looper, then perhaps T05 both sides works best. This might explain why the vast majority of Pro players employ the same rubber on both sides; most use a two wing attack loop style.

Jabugo said:

When you say you understand the concept of FH rubber but not a BH rubber, a red light went off for me. I see now that my "physical" explanation no longer holds. In fact, there is no FH rubber or BH rubber. There are only stroke style rubbers; i.e. looper rubber, driver rubber, chopper rubber, blocker rubber (and mostly a mix of these with one or two qualities standing out more). Nothing says that we "must" play a standard way for FH or BH. Depending upon the predominant stroke type a player employs on the FH or BH side, we can determine the rubber type that best suits that wing. Say for example, you prefer pushing and chopping on the FH and smash driving on the BH, you might pick long pips on the FH and Bryce Speed on the BH. If you're a two wing looper, then perhaps T05 both sides works best. This might explain why the vast majority of Pro players employ the same rubber on both sides; most use a two wing attack loop style.

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Yes. Like I Said, if you do the same things on the same side, it tends to work out, or if you like to think of both sides similarly when approaching shots, then the same rubber on both sides is ideal. But if you have relatively different approaches or a desire for a different feeling on both sides, then it may not work.

I think taking two of the same rubbers is in general a good idea.
Except maybe if you play a DHS Hurrican, Skyline ish forehand. Then id reccomend you taking an euro rubber for the BH.
Atm im really tempted to go for double Xiom vega pro.

Jabugo said:

In fact, there is no FH rubber or BH rubber. There are only stroke style rubbers; i.e. looper rubber, driver rubber, chopper rubber, blocker rubber (and mostly a mix of these with one or two qualities standing out more).

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When I say I can understand "somehow", also means that I don't really agree witth it. Btw I also don''t agree with "blocking rubber" or whatever. As long as it is an offensive backside, it's a looping rubber. You don't have to be looper oriented palyer to play with T05. Mizutani is looping more that Kenta Matsudaira or S. Fegerl, Mizutani doesn't use T05, the two others are using it. Many people will "determine" that T05 suits Mizutani better than Matsudaira.....

To me any offensive backside is made/designed to loop, to block, to flick..etc..everything needed for complete offensive playstyle. Its just that with your particular touch or technique you will find that some rubbers are better for "looping" and some others are better for blocking....I personnally find T05 well designed for looping and not quite as good for blocks (I block better with 20% concentration with Vega Asia than with 200% concentration and T05), but for an other player it might actually be the exact opposite. Same goes for MX-P, I find it personnally very good for active strokes, much less effective in passive strokes........many others will find it very good also for blocks, or short service returns....

The only thing that matters is touch, as long as a rubber prodives you good touch on your FH loop, you will loop well with it, as long as it provides you good touch on blocks, you will block well with it. I don't believe Muzutani really chooses T80 over T05 because of spin/speed/throw caracteristics, I believe he is chosing this rubber because it provides him better touch than T05.

Killerspintt said:

When I say I can understand "somehow", also means that I don't really agree witth it. Btw I also don''t agree with "blocking rubber" or whatever. As long as it is an offensive backside, it's a looping rubber. You don't have to be looper oriented palyer to play with T05. Mizutani is looping more that Kenta Matsudaira or S. Fegerl, Mizutani doesn't use T05, the two others are using it. Many people will "determine" that T05 suits Mizutani better than Matsudaira.....

To me any offensive backside is made/designed to loop, to block, to flick..etc..everything needed for complete offensive playstyle. Its just that with your particular touch or technique you will find that some rubbers are better for "looping" and some others are better for blocking....I personnally find T05 well designed for looping and not quite as good for blocks (I block better with 20% concentration with Vega Asia than with 200% concentration and T05), but for an other player it might actually be the exact opposite. Same goes for MX-P, I find it personnally very good for active strokes, much less effective in passive strokes........many others will find it very good also for blocks, or short service returns....

The only thing that matters is touch, as long as a rubber prodives you good touch on your FH loop, you will loop well with it, as long as it provides you good touch on blocks, you will block well with it. I don't believe Muzutani really chooses T80 over T05 because of spin/speed/throw caracteristics, I believe he is chosing this rubber because it provides him better touch than T05.

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Yet another great post from Killerspintt. I have to say, I have learned so much from KSpin.

Guys, you should be hitting the like button left and right. This guy only posts once in a while, but invariably when he posts the message is BIG and really valuable.

The player, the touch and the feeling FOR THE PLAYER, of the rubber.

I have a feeling that at that level of the top pros the touch and ability to feel on the FH and BH is not too different and their skills have been honed by hours and hours of training. If there is a weaker wing, the player will probably do extra training on that wing to bring it up closer to the level of the stronger wing to minimize the weakness.

For a player like me, I know my two wings have different touch and abilities to feel.

My BH is darn good at blocking, counterlooping, particularly vs heavy topspin, and for high impact banging into the ball vs topspin shots, in other words, I can accelerate and rip with my BH. I do those things way better on BH than FH.

But any shot that requires delicate touch, like putting HEAVY topspin on a backspin ball, my FH is way WAY better at delicate touch for heavy spin.

Using the same rubber on FH and BH, for me is starting to be much more useful than it used to be. Why, I have been working on and getting way better at looping backspin more solidly with my BH. My FH I always worked on a lot because it used to have so many problems. They are getting closer to each other in skill sets.

But I think what Killsrspin has presented gives a real and more complete insight into how we might choose rubbers if we had the ideal circumstances to test and choose based on our touch and feel.

NextLevel said:

Yes. Like I Said, if you do the same things on the same side, it tends to work out, or if you like to think of both sides similarly when approaching shots, then the same rubber on both sides is ideal. But if you have relatively different approaches or a desire for a different feeling on both sides, then it may not work.

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NextLevel, at least with me the thing is that I don't feel the same rubber on my backhand the same way I feel it on my forehand. Maybe the point of contact of the handle with your hands ... I really don't know, but the feeling is not the same with the same rubber, so there are rubbers that fit better my backhand, there are others that fit better my forehand and eventually there are others that I like the way it feels on both wings, but they don't feel the same way anyway.

Luis Nasche said:

NextLevel, at least with me the thing is that I don't feel the same rubber on my backhand the same way I feel it on my forehand. Maybe the point of contact of the handle with your hands ... I really don't know, but the feeling is not the same with the same rubber, so there are rubbers that fit better my backhand, there are others that fit better my forehand and eventually there are others that I like the way it feels on both wings, but they don't feel the same way anyway.

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Good point.

Luis Nasche said:

NextLevel, at least with me the thing is that I don't feel the same rubber on my backhand the same way I feel it on my forehand. Maybe the point of contact of the handle with your hands ... I really don't know, but the feeling is not the same with the same rubber, so there are rubbers that fit better my backhand, there are others that fit better my forehand and eventually there are others that I like the way it feels on both wings, but they don't feel the same way anyway.

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I doubt anyone does and since you are a penholder, it is probably worse. I actually try to make my backhand and forehand technique similar even as they are technically different. I would argue that it is more about the ability to transfer insights.

NextLevel said:

I doubt anyone does and since you are a penholder, it is probably worse. I actually try to make my backhand and forehand technique similar even as they are technically different. I would argue that it is more about the ability to transfer insights.

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I was in the past, nowadays I almost just play shakehand, even if I still can play better with a Jpen blade.

Luis Nasche said:

I was in the past, nowadays I almost just play shakehand, even if I still can play better with a Jpen blade.

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Interesting. For me, video is always the best way to understand someone's specific statement. Sometimes, feeling is really technique.

NextLevel said:

Interesting. For me, video is always the best way to understand someone's specific statement. Sometimes, feeling is really technique.

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Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that one feel the same rubber a way on his FH and another on his FH (we are talking offensive strokes like loops, drives and smashes).

Luis Nasche said:

Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that one feel the same rubber one way on his FH and another on his FH (we are talking offensive strokes like loops, drives and smashes).

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Why? Sometimes, we confuse our feeling with our technique or consistency. Baal's point is that people can be wrong about this idea that FH and BH are different. Look at Ma Long, for example..

NextLevel said:

Why? Sometimes, we confuse our feeling with our technique or consistency. Baal's point is that people can be wrong about this idea that FH and BH are different. Look at Ma Long, for example..

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Ma Long is just the perfect example. He is a highly effective offensive player with both wings and his backhand rubber don't share almost any characteristic with his forehand rubber.

Luis Nasche said:

Ma Long is just the perfect example. He is a highly effective offensive player with both wings and his backhand rubber don't share almost any characteristic with his forehand rubber.

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Since he uses tacky rubber the BH now, they are more similar now.

I have been using T05 on FH and T64 on BH for the past couple of weeks. They are a set I got a while ago and only used for a few weeks when I switched from my TB ZLF to my first OSP blade. So they are still close enough to new for me to use for a while.

Anyway, I am used to T05 on FH and I am used to T64 on BH. And last night I was messing around with flipping the racket over and seeing how the rubbers felt on the other wing. My FH was very able to switch between the two rubbers and the adjustment felt minimal. They felt different but equally good on my FH.

However, on my BH, for me, the T64 felt totally alive and very natural like I was dialed in with it. It is the one I have been using. And the T05 felt dull and like everything I did was a little off and like I wasn't getting quite the right impact into the ball and the right amount of sinking the ball into the topsheet. The more I played, the more I adjusted to the T05. After about 5 min it started feeling okay. After 10 min that stuff started going away and T05 felt different but good.

My money says that if, for the next few weeks I used T05 on BH and T64 on FH and then did the same tests, it would be easier for me to transition from T05 to T64 than the transition I was just playing with. I have the sense that the slightly softer response from the pimple structure of T64 was easier for my BH than the denser pimple construction of T05.

Now, 10 min isn't really that long in the scope of things. But they are both Tenergy and the only difference is the pimple structure.

In some ways my BH is not as good as FH. Like, if I am going to open up off a long, heavy push, I am way better on FH. But in counterlooping my BH can be pretty nasty. I definitely get a lot of impact when counterlooping with BH. But the slightly harder T05 took me some time to get used to.

Now, for months I used MX-P on BH. So I know I would get used to it. But it did take a while to get used to MX-P for my BH. And it did not take almost any time to get used to it for my FH. And there was a period of a few weeks where I was thinking that something a little softer on my BH would work better for me.

So, my thoughts on the brain processing aspect of this are: I believe the brain and neural processing have more to do with getting used to whatever is on their than they do with adjusting to the fact that the FH and BH rubbers are the same or that they are different.

I am not so sure your brain has to process the hardness of the rubber on the FH for making your BH shot and vice versa. The rubber on the BH, your brain has to process that rubber/hardness and get used to it for when you hit your BH. And the rubber on your FH, your brain has to process that rubber/hardness and get used to it for when you hit your FH.

I think your brain processes the equipment you use for your BH in calibrating your BH stroke and same with FH. But the FH rubber does not come into play in brain processing for BH stroke and vice versa.

An anatomical analogy:

Your left lung has 2 lobes and is one third smaller than your right lung. The right lung has 3 lobes. Above the diaphragm and under your lung on the left side is your heart. Below the left lung is your stomach which is soft, frequently empty or only partially full and fairly easy got the diaphragm to move and displace when it contracts for an inhale.

There are no organs between the lung and the diaphragm on the right side. But under the diaphragm on the right is your liver which is relatively solid and hard for the diaphragm to move and displace. As a result the diaphragm is considerably stronger on the right side and attaches lower onto your spine.

And yet, despite all this, I have never noticed the right side working harder when I inhale than the left. And if I eat an outrageous amount and start finding it hard to breath, I don't notice it being harder on one side than the other. But when I did have pneumonia in my left lung, I absolutely knew where, in which part of my left lung it was: very specifically.

We are so used to the internal imbalance that we do not notice it.

In the same way, your system gets used to how much force needed for BH independently from FH. I am quite sure this is the case. But there is still nothing wrong with using the same or different rubber on both wings.


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