Switching from LP's to inverted (chopping)

StuartMarquis · Jun 1, 2016

I currently used Curl P-4 Chop long pimple on the backhand. I'm considering switching to an inverted chopping rubber like tackiness chop 2. How similar is chopping with one of these rubbers compared to chopping with an LP?

BeGo · Jun 2, 2016

base on my experience with tack 2, tack 1, pro xp, fl 2, stranger,

other than obvious "give or return spin" answer,

slow chop and push will be sharpen due to susceptibility to incoming ball spin, so my inverted chop more open than lp chop.

fast chop will be spinnier, a lot. the return ball shall be "snake-y"

note. slow here means, your blade face slower than incoming ball spin, and vise versa

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imgoodatgolfthough · Jun 2, 2016

Stuart i think you will just have to bite the bullet and try different kinds to see if you like them.Good used rubbers often come up on e bay

thekleifheit13 · Jun 2, 2016

You might just try a cheap Chinese rubber in thin sponge, they're dead enough to give you the control to chop. Something like Gambler Reflectoid in 1.5 or Geospin Tacky in the same thickness should be sufficient and they're $14 per rubber.

pgpg · Jun 2, 2016

StuartMarquis said:
I currently used Curl P-4 Chop long pimple on the backhand. I'm considering switching to an inverted chopping rubber like tackiness chop 2. How similar is chopping with one of these rubbers compared to chopping with an LP?

The question is: why? There is a reason pretty much all modern choppers use pips on BH. Are you trying to explore 'classic defense' style?

StuartMarquis · Jun 2, 2016

No, I'm actually trying to explore a more attacking game and figured that an inverted rubber that could chop would give me more options to attack with the BH than a LP...but I still want to be able to chop and defend with the BH hence my looking for an inverted with defence capabilities rather than an all out attacking rubber.

Nuke Skywalker · Jun 2, 2016

I'ts possible, but not easy. The bat angles are different for eveything and sidespin becomes one more added worry on returning chops on the BH. You most likely deal with this on your FH chop by habit.

I did this with some success, but I was easily 2 levels worse. It's far easier to just attack with double inverted than to play defense. In fact, I'd argue that double inverted defense is the hardest style to master. You're basically allowing your enemy to take the initiative most of the time, but without any control rubbers or deception to equal out giving up that initiative.

Youtube has 3 good double inverted choppers, 2 pros and 1 higher level amateur.
Pros:
Satoshi Aida - Defensive Hinoki Blade (Forget the name) and Mark V HPS Max both sides (don't know how he does it)

Nicholay Telnoy - Sword 309 Chop blade with Spinlord Marder 2.0 both sides.

Amateur USATT 2300:
Larry Abass - Defplay Senso with 1.5 Gambler Reflectoid BH, and Vega Pro Max FH.

There are many other vids of Larry and Telnoy, only a few of Aida.

thekleifheit13 · Jun 2, 2016

How have we not seen more of Aida?! That guy's game is too much fun to watch!

pgpg · Jun 3, 2016

...
Amateur USATT 2300:
Larry Abass - Defplay Senso with 1.5 Gambler Reflectoid BH, and Vega Pro Max FH.

There are many other vids of Larry and Telnoy, only a few of Aida.

Now I am strangely tempted to dress up one of my spare Defplays with a Reflectioid on BH to see what it feels like... But I agree that defending on BH with inverted is a bit off the beaten path - perhaps that's where appeal is. OP, have you considered twiddling in order to add oomph to your BH attack? Learning to hit with LP is an appealing option too (at least to me).

@NukeSkywalker - your avatar looks quite familiar, Mr. Ninja

StuartMarquis · Jun 3, 2016

Yes, I'm in the process of learning to twiddle with my LP's...but was just thinking that if I can chop with an inverted then I'd be better off moving away from LP's. At the moment I only use the LP's for chopping and looping/hitting balls that come to me as backspin...but if I could do that with an inverted, and also counter loop with inverted, then surely that would be a better option as it would give more range of shots an eliminate the need to twiddle?

Nuke Skywalker · Jun 3, 2016

pgpg said:
@NukeSkywalker - your avatar looks quite familiar, Mr. Ninja

Yep, no secret! It's me Japsican. I already introduced myself as such on one of Der_Echte's other threads.

Nuke Skywalker · Jun 3, 2016

thekleifheit13 said:
How have we not seen more of Aida?! That guy's game is too much fun to watch!

I know! He's amazing, and chops with super fast rubbers! I actually was so impressed I scoured the internet for videos. Not much out there, but there are a few. His attack is as good as his defense. I even friended him on Facebook to find out how he does it and what his equipment is.

Nuke Skywalker · Jun 3, 2016

pgpg said:
Now I am strangely tempted to dress up one of my spare Defplays with a Reflectioid on BH to see what it feels like... But I agree that defending on BH with inverted is a bit off the beaten path -

I actually did this as my original double inverted "quit complaining about pips" chopping blade. It actually works very well. The reflectoid is actually quite relatively spin insensitive and even a little deceptive due to the pace change it creates and if you use a thin rubber, there's a little give on pushes and you will get pop ups occasionally. Larry uses 1.5mm Red, and weight wise that feels very similar to P-1R with sponge. I also didn't feel the strokes were as different from LP because of the speed of the Reflectoid. You just have less wiggle room on chops....which against spinny players is scary. Opening loops on the BH are good with the thin reflectoid too. Hardest part for me is dealing with any sidespin when chopping. LPs take care of that for you largely.

For me, the thing is, you really need a good FH if the rally gets to mid distance, or you have to be very good blocking with the reflectoid. Larry does it...I mean...he's pretty competitive there vs. Kai, who really is a scary good player (2600+ now). He even chops back a few of his loops!

If you watch him though, he attacks a lot with his BH, so ...there's the difference.

BeGo · Jun 4, 2016

Reflectoid and Submarine top my list on best Japanese Style chopping aka Tackiness style rubber, on paper.

sadly,

Very hard to find in Indonesia. Looking for them in black 1.5 mm for trial

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Ilia Minkin · Jun 5, 2016

Nuke Skywalker said:
Satoshi Aida - Defensive Hinoki Blade (Forget the name) and Mark V HPS Max both sides (don't know how he does it)

Thank you so much for posting a match of Aida! It is funny to listen to commentators as they discover that he plays with smooth on both sides

Nuke Skywalker · Jun 7, 2016

BeGo said:
Reflectoid and Submarine top my list on best Japanese Style chopping aka Tackiness style rubber, on paper.

sadly,

Very hard to find in Indonesia. Looking for them in black 1.5 mm for trial

Sent from my T1X Plus using Tapatalk

Have you talked to Alex from OOAK? I know they carry Reflectoid and the shipping shouldn't be that bad from Australia...I would think.

Nuke Skywalker · Jun 7, 2016

Ilia Minkin said:
Thank you so much for posting a match of Aida! It is funny to listen to commentators as they discover that he plays with smooth on both sides

My pleasure! He plays a truely beautiful game! as for the commentators, i agree, pretty funny.

Baal · Jun 7, 2016

pgpg said:
The question is: why? There is a reason pretty much all modern choppers use pips on BH. Are you trying to explore 'classic defense' style?

My thought too.

Baal · Jun 7, 2016

Ilia Minkin said:
Thank you so much for posting a match of Aida! It is funny to listen to commentators as they discover that he plays with smooth on both sides

Watching that match, I still feel like Aida would be better with LP on his BH side. I watch Li Kewei almost every day, so I get to see how really high level modern defenders approach it. It seems like Aida made a lot of errors on his BH side and that is always the problem with inverted there.

The other thing of course is, even if Aida can do it, make no mistake, it is much harder for most people to control the ball with inverted than with LP, and if you switch to inverted you are going to be giving up a lot of unforced errors caused by your opponent misjudging LP.

It makes not real sense to me, but I'm just some guy on the internet.

Nuke Skywalker · Jun 7, 2016

Baal said:
Watching that match, I still feel like Aida would be better with LP on his BH side. I watch Li Kewei almost every day, so I get to see how really high level modern defenders approach it. It seems like Aida made a lot of errors on his BH side and that is always the problem with inverted there.

The other thing of course is, even if Aida can do it, make no mistake, it is much harder for most people to control the ball with inverted than with LP, and if you switch to inverted you are going to be giving up a lot of unforced errors caused by your opponent misjudging LP.

It makes not real sense to me, but I'm just some guy on the internet.

Well, I actually asked him this question as we are Facebook friends. He told me he tried LPs and SPs, didn't like it and didn't like not being able to attack on the BH like with inverted. He does play an attack game during many of his points. He said he's a far worse LP player having given it a shot in the past.

Switching from LP's to inverted (chopping)

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