Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
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Did some serves today. This is my first session.

Phone ran out of juice shortly after, but I kept serving. I noticed I am still doing the followthrough thing, so I really focused on scooping up on the front of the ball, and I got a few relatively light serves but that are still short and came back to me on the ground or into the net. None of these came into the net and they just stopped on the ground, maybe with a little sidespin.

@UpSideDownCarl
@NextLevel
@Shuki
@Der_Echte

Go wild.


Also I am aware the angle is not the best, and I had to flip the video in YT because my phone did not film horizontally. I'm working on it.

Also giving thanks for Archo posting video of his serves.

I'll let other people say more. But, as far as I am concerned, these are decent and the contact is not bad.

When I can I will see if I can get video of serves that show my wrist in action since the last ones did not have it. [emoji2] I am looking forward to seeing what my serves look like from that angle to see the mechanics close up.


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says what [IMG]
@UpSideDownCarl

I'm surprised you think they're decent. Did you miss the part about them not even coming back all the way towards me? I guess you can't see the ball on the table, so you can't know for sure. They are pretty low and short though, as you can hear.

I considered that serving session a bit of a failure because I wasn't really producing pull balls, more like hitting into it from the bottom. I'm trying to correct that and I'd like to hear ideas on what I should do.

However I must say that NL's emphasis on brushing the front has brought some improvement. It's such a big difference if you move the contact point just a little bit forward.
 
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says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
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Archo, whether the ball comes back to the net does not always tell you how much spin is on the ball. But that is not what I am looking at anyway.

You are not banging into the ball. The contact has some brush to it. Not sure you are using your wrist much. By the way, I don't see much wrong with the downward followthrough. I see some high level players do that. But it may make the topspin serves easier to ready when you need to pull up on them.

And in that video you posted before this one, the contact was considerably less controlled. You were bumping into the ball without quite knowing where the blade face was. This video, the way you touch the ball is actually much better regardless of how much spin you are getting on the ball. I think it may be that you are going through all the motions because the table is there.

For me, the serves that have the most spin often do not come back. And ones that don't have much spin do.

Like those ones in the video where I was trying to hold the ball on for as long as possible, they did not really have much spin but they all came back to the net. And I suspect NL is right that by trying to hold the ball on for longer, I just made myself tighten up and didn't. Whereas, when I do get a lot of spin, I am have a feeling that I am not tightening up that way. We will see when I get some footage what is actually happening when I get a lot of spin. [emoji2]


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
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says what [IMG]
I'm using Joola Spinball*, and it does LOOK kinda heavy, because it's just a total orange blur, but I don't think they're heavy.

Then again I am judging it based on what it does on the ground. I don't have the eye to judge from the table: I don't even know what truly heavy backspin looks like up close, so I have no idea. I just assume these are pretty light because my contact is not as good as I have experienced it being able to be, and my racket head speed is not too high.

They're heavy enough to get netted easily even if you chop into them, but I think that has more to do with my opponent's touch than mine.


I'll take some video next time where you can maybe see more of how the ball reacts on the table.

*Not in this video but usually

EDIT:

Somewhat related, but a few days ago I noticed that I can hold the bat and serve with a much loose grip than before. I remember needing to have some tension because it really felt like it's gonna fly from my hand, but now I have less tension and it doesn't feel like it's too loose. I could not do that before, at all. Not even shadow serves: it felt like it's gonna fly out.

Maybe this is one reason why my arm is so damn tight in my strokes: just fear of the racket flying out. I've been playing a lot of much weaker players lately, and sometimes I experimented with barely even holding the racket on pushes and whatever, and I feel more confident in holding it loose. It hasn't flown out of my hand yet even when I thought it would.

I think my serves are much more relaxed than my strokes, so maybe it will translate over.
 
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I came to the realization that arch isn't placing his camera at bad angles to prevent us from seeing certain things. He's doing it because he's bad at placing the camera. ^.^

The more recent videos have shown a lot of progress all around for you compared to your older ones. Looks like you're working pretty hard!
 
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Sorry if it's a little bit off topic, but should i consider buying a tripod to record my matches or practice? Or is setting up a camera on another table good enough viewing angles to critique my own game from? Thanks:)
 
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Sorry if it's a little bit off topic, but should i consider buying a tripod to record my matches or practice? Or is setting up a camera on another table good enough viewing angles to critique my own game from? Thanks:)

If you are sure that the another table will be always available :)
 
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Did some serves today. This is my first session.

Phone ran out of juice shortly after, but I kept serving. I noticed I am still doing the followthrough thing, so I really focused on scooping up on the front of the ball, and I got a few relatively light serves but that are still short and came back to me on the ground or into the net. None of these came into the net and they just stopped on the ground, maybe with a little sidespin.

@UpSideDownCarl
@NextLevel
@Shuki
@Der_Echte

Go wild.


Also I am aware the angle is not the best, and I had to flip the video in YT because my phone did not film horizontally. I'm working on it.
You still have work to do pulling under the ball. You seem to want to mimic an advanced player swing but in all honesty, and don't take this the wrong way, you need to appreciate where you are in the process and reduce the moving parts to the absolute minimum. You are combining a lot of things that do not go together so I would suggest you take it a step at a time.

You are swinging into the ball too hard for the height of your toss. The higher the toss the shorter the swing. If you want to toss the ball that high, start with a swing like DerEchte. Relatively short, back and forth. Look at around 2:00 or so in the video in the post linked to below.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/...r_Echte-in-NYC&p=164166&viewfull=1#post164166

Your best attempt hit the ball into the net around 1:39 or so and some of the earlier ones that went into the net. Work with that and make minor adjustments.

EDIT: Around 4:46 or so, you were not so elliptical and you actually managed to come under the ball much better. Hopefully you can see that. Those last few swings were the best even if the ball didn't get to the net. Make them more back and forth and start from there. Let the ball fall onto your racket.

The elliptical backswing is going to hurt you until you learn to time the ball properly. Even when I pretend to use that, I use it for show - I never use it to actually swing at the ball. I just start with it and enter my usual serving position, let the ball come down and whip back and forth into it. You can look at videos of my serves and see if I ever do that circular backswing stuff. It's a different approach to serving from what you are trying to learn. If you find a coach who has mastered it, learn it from him. I know coaches who are still collecting money from students trying to teach them that stuff over 2 years now. Ma Long and Ding Ning do it, but Fan Zhendong and Zhang Jike do what I am trying to show you. So it really comes down to who you can learn it from.

You are supposed to toss the ball up over your right hip or so, which is about where you are going to do your whip pattern. Then you let the ball get to the peak and begin to drop and then start and time your whip pattern to hit the ball underneath it as it is falling into the paddle. Don't start until the ball is on its way down. Once you master this, you can begin to "go wild", though I suspect that your attempts to do so will likely hurt the quality of your serves over time. The circularity may help you if you are too lazy to get the timing right but it doesn't give you a better serve.

So again:

1. The higher the toss, the shorter the swing.
2. No circular backswing - just back and forth using the figure 8 pattern that I showed earlier. If the figure 8 is too complicated, a pure back and forth or a check mark is fine.
3. Try to pull pass the bottom of the ball to the front on the contact. Over time, adjust for height and ball trajectory.

Keep it simple. Looking cool isn't necessarily good table tennis. The best punch and reverse serves are some of the ugliest looking serves in the world.

Watch these - if you have questions about the last two serves, I can give my perspective on what is happening. None of the serves except maybe the second are heavy backspin. It is easy to get confused trying to figure out what is going on with all these serves. But if you have developed serves, you can have an idea what is happening.

 
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Seo Hyo Won unsatisfied with Duncan Donuts bill ??

d441c14e954c432bf39f1a303b2fecac.jpg


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says what [IMG]
@Shuki

Hahah, I guess. I was never intending to show these, and I wasn't sure if the camera even had a view on me. I just wanted to see what was going on. It was good enough of a view, so I posted it.


@NextLevel

I'll keep the simplicity in mind. It makes sense that with only a few moving parts, the serve will be more consistent at the start. The circularity is probably there because it's a nice crutch to make up for bad timing. Instead I should indeed learn the "hard" way.

So you want me to:

Shorten my swing
Time the peak and backswing, no circular bullshit
Come more under and along the front than along the back

My sidespin pendulum doesn't have any fancy bullshit going on and it's my best serve, so make your assumptions. :rolleyes:
 
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Hey guys, I've been absent for quite some time from the forum.

First of all, even if a little bit late, but I want to congratulate all the members from the US with Thanksgiving Day!

Last Saturday went to the moldovan cadet & junior championships. As I knew that my game is worse than normal, I went there with almost no expectation. Decided to completely change my mindset compared to other tournaments. First of all, I kept telling me to keep calm whatever happens, even if I miss all the shots. Focus the key word here. Then I decided to focus on matches vs players that are considered weaker rather than trying to upset someone considered better.

Had a decent sleep the night before the tournament, which definitely felt good. So in my group the top seed was one of the best juniors in the country, the second was a friend of mine a level above me, I was the third, the fourth seed was a guy I've never heard of before, and there was one more kid which could make some decent loops.

So my first match against the 5th seed, I have quite little feeling of the ball, but I take the first game at deuce, then I lose the second 11-9. Focused a little bit better and took the next two games easily. Then i had to play the first seed, remembered that this match has absolutely no meaning, decided to try and play a normal game. Surprisingly, it seems this guy has quite weak serves - I could attack them most of the times and managed to get a good amount of points this way. Lost first game 8-11, the second one 13-15, even had a game point, and the third one was clearer in his favour. Then I played my friend, also didn't stress too much knowing I have little chance against him. Somehow managed to take a set, and the game was pretty decent.

Then I had my last groups match against the fourth seed. I was estimating my chance to get upset as quite probable. So from the very beginning it became evident that I have a big problem - he was serving sidespin deep in the backhand and then forehand looping the return. It seems quite a simple combo but I had quite some trouble - lost the first two sets at -5 and -6. Thought the match was lost. Stepping to take that serve with the forehand would have been a too risky bet, and even if I am confident in my backhand, I didn't believe I could have looped that serve. Trying a simple push hasn't worked at all throughout the first two games. I couldn't think of anything but making a heavy long push - of course he had the posibility to attack, but no way he could've killed it right off, even the ball was a little higher. And that seemed to work. Took the third set at deuce. Took the fourth relatively comfortable. Then I lose the start of the fifth - I'm down 1-5. I decided it's the right time to use two serves that I noticed he had real trouble returning. And it worked, 3-5 and I hear how he is getting nervous. Don't exactly remember how, but 11-5 in my favour.

So i finished 3rd in my group and was supposed to be one of the favourites in the 2nd draw. But somehow, a friend of mine that is generally better finished 4th in his group so I had to play him. Actually he wasn't out of my reach, he was playing normal, nothing surprising. But I think my fear had an effect here. I lost the first two sets, so 0-2 down. Then I take a set and realize that I can beat him. But I lost the start of the fourth and then the whole set and match at deuce.

After the tournament, was talking to a higher ranked player and he told that I was focused, but absolutely stressed when playing, and I couldn't but agree with him.

So, what I have learned :
1. My mindset for this tournament was a step in the right direction. My game felt a lot better.
2. I need to relax my hand at competition.
3. Be afraid of no one.
4. I need to play more tournaments in order to get used to them.

Sorry for the long post, wish you all a nice day!
 
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Great Job Cornel ! A step in the right direction , but when you go up against better players shouldn't you be thinking a little differently ? That is , I can play freely now and see what is the maximum potential of my game ... normally , we are supposed to play much better in quality when we go up against players who are a couple of levels above us ...
Hey guys, I've been absent for quite some time from the forum.

First of all, even if a little bit late, but I want to congratulate all the members from the US with Thanksgiving Day!

Last Saturday went to the moldovan cadet & junior championships. As I knew that my game is worse than normal, I went there with almost no expectation. Decided to completely change my mindset compared to other tournaments. First of all, I kept telling me to keep calm whatever happens, even if I miss all the shots. Focus the key word here. Then I decided to focus on matches vs players that are considered weaker rather than trying to upset someone considered better.

Had a decent sleep the night before the tournament, which definitely felt good. So in my group the top seed was one of the best juniors in the country, the second was a friend of mine a level above me, I was the third, the fourth seed was a guy I've never heard of before, and there was one more kid which could make some decent loops.

So my first match against the 5th seed, I have quite little feeling of the ball, but I take the first game at deuce, then I lose the second 11-9. Focused a little bit better and took the next two games easily. Then i had to play the first seed, remembered that this match has absolutely no meaning, decided to try and play a normal game. Surprisingly, it seems this guy has quite weak serves - I could attack them most of the times and managed to get a good amount of points this way. Lost first game 8-11, the second one 13-15, even had a game point, and the third one was clearer in his favour. Then I played my friend, also didn't stress too much knowing I have little chance against him. Somehow managed to take a set, and the game was pretty decent.

Then I had my last groups match against the fourth seed. I was estimating my chance to get upset as quite probable. So from the very beginning it became evident that I have a big problem - he was serving sidespin deep in the backhand and then forehand looping the return. It seems quite a simple combo but I had quite some trouble - lost the first two sets at -5 and -6. Thought the match was lost. Stepping to take that serve with the forehand would have been a too risky bet, and even if I am confident in my backhand, I didn't believe I could have looped that serve. Trying a simple push hasn't worked at all throughout the first two games. I couldn't think of anything but making a heavy long push - of course he had the posibility to attack, but no way he could've killed it right off, even the ball was a little higher. And that seemed to work. Took the third set at deuce. Took the fourth relatively comfortable. Then I lose the start of the fifth - I'm down 1-5. I decided it's the right time to use two serves that I noticed he had real trouble returning. And it worked, 3-5 and I hear how he is getting nervous. Don't exactly remember how, but 11-5 in my favour.

So i finished 3rd in my group and was supposed to be one of the favourites in the 2nd draw. But somehow, a friend of mine that is generally better finished 4th in his group so I had to play him. Actually he wasn't out of my reach, he was playing normal, nothing surprising. But I think my fear had an effect here. I lost the first two sets, so 0-2 down. Then I take a set and realize that I can beat him. But I lost the start of the fourth and then the whole set and match at deuce.

After the tournament, was talking to a higher ranked player and he told that I was focused, but absolutely stressed when playing, and I couldn't but agree with him.

So, what I have learned :
1. My mindset for this tournament was a step in the right direction. My game felt a lot better.
2. I need to relax my hand at competition.
3. Be afraid of no one.
4. I need to play more tournaments in order to get used to them.

Sorry for the long post, wish you all a nice day!
 
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Great Job Cornel ! A step in the right direction , but when you go up against better players shouldn't you be thinking a little differently ? That is , I can play freely now and see what is the maximum potential of my game ... normally , we are supposed to play much better in quality when we go up against players who are a couple of levels above us ...

I agree. When I coach a player who is weaker vs a stronger player, I don't even bother with tactics or footwork per se. All I stress is proper attacking table tennis and a relaxed mindset. Proper table tennis is to look for the first opening, play the ball outside the power zones and test both the long and the short games. You will rarely be able to do it at the level of a higher opponent but sometimes miracles happen. I have experienced enough of those miracles to know.

The first thing that people need to get over is labelling people by rating, seeding or ranking. I am in the Butterfly teams tournament and I went 6-2 I think on day 1, winning my first 3 matches, losing my next 2, and winning my last 3. My last opponent was supposed to be a 2200 career player who is high 2100s now who I got my best win ever against last year. This year, he just defaulted rather than play me.

But to make my point, I played at least three matches, maybe more, where I lost the first game to a lower rated player. Lost convincingly too. But the thing that has changed my life is that ever since I lost to a 1500 kid when I was 1900, I got better at accepting when when my opponent was playing well and that it was my responsibility to make him play worse. The kid made some great loop kills, and I kept stressing as if the result was more important than the quality of his play. I revamped my serves a bit after that loss.

Today, I was playing a 1590 chopper. I had seem him chopping vs a power looper and was surprised by his low rating. Literally, the kid goes up 7-1 on me or something like that. When you go down like that, your job is to figure out why the opponent is playing well and what you can do to win points. Don't throw away the game. Test strategies that you have not tested because you can still come back and even if you do not, you may find something that makes the next game much easier. I think I pulled back to an 11-8 loss but I realized that I had to keep him closer to the table and be more consistent, even if it meant floating the ball or popping the ball up occasionally. After all, there had to be a logic to his rating. But let us assume he beat me - some of the shots he made were so good to me that I am okay if a 1000 player beats me playing that way. All I just say is forget the rating, he played well and didn't miss. But the mistake is to get so caught up in rating that you don't want to credit your opponent for good play. I basically beat him at 5, 5 and 7 or something like that.

Then there was a lefty that I had beaten 3-1 before and again he won the first game today. He has really good serves with great action and movement. Again, lower rated than me. I lost the first game. One of my teammates told me that when in doubt, go to the middle. But even the last time I played him, I just decided to rally more and it changed. You see, he is a middle aged guy, almost 60, so making him play more shots brings down his level as long as you don't give him the power to work with. Playing to the middle requires him to move to make a good shot as well as playing wide when he is off balance. He played fantastic when set especially with his pips. The next games were easy, though I didn't close out the last one smoothly as I wanted to test something for my vanity.

So the first thing you have to do to relax is to accept good players always have a reasonable chance of beating you. After that, you just play the game point by point the way you intend to play it and make adjustments. If you don't win, just convince yourself that your opponent played a correct game to deserve to win because you mostly executed by making the first opening, doing quality serves and returns, and doing reasonable shots but that your opponent just made better ones. Even if you played to their strengths, it is okay. It just means something you have to learn or develop a new dimension to counter. I was blocked down by a girl that I think I should have beaten given that I had the lead against here a few times but lost the match 3-1. But she blocked heavy openers well. If I had moved better I could have done better but I didn't and it is okay. Just reminds me that my movement to and my placement is more important than I give myself credit for.

So in the end, don't let winning and losing drive you crazy on the basis of ranking. Just ask yourself whether you executed your plays in terms of making first opening, quality serves and okay returns in balls you read. If you did that, the result will work out in the long term. But even if you want to win today, you gave yourself the best chance. No matter how good you are, there is always someone better than you on any given day and you have to accept that.
 
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