Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

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Recent training with Nicky.

Trying to retrain my backhand for the 1283465th time. Originally I had problems overusing the wrist. Much later a coach told me to use more forearm, then I tried to use more forearm, but my body movement was all wrong and I stopped involving the wrist at all, or when I did I used it too consciously and would angle it in some strange way. Then I tried to add body movement and only used forearm.

A very good player last week showed me that the elbow should be pointing pretty much down at the end of the swing, this is the result of the the whole movement being completed. I think I often keep my elbow pointed a bit to the side and often wouldn't complete the swing. I've never seen it before because when good players do it the elbow points down for a fraction of time and the backhand side of the racket from pointing down instantly snaps back to the side. In this vid I was trying to complete the swing, but I still think I can snap my wrist back more on the backswing this close to the table.

Hey, Riche, haven't had time to really post here a for a while (life has changed quite a bit lol). Your backhand looks really good. If anything, the biggest lesson I have learned from my covid19 training period (before I stopped for all the changes in my life) is that there is no single backhand topspin technique for any player or for any ball, though there are usually distance/power limitations on some techniques and the more powerful ones tend to compromise reaction speed, hence most players use the quicker ones when rallying and the powerful ones when they need to generate on openers or away fromthe table. Ma Long uses a few, Harimoto uses a few, FZD uses a few and Dima uses a few etc. Your technique checks the boxes and is extremely versatile as you seem to hit all the shots that they do - you have quite a few backhands going on in there. My technique has changed a bit in the past year (it probably still looks the same, but my mental approach is different).

All the advice about finishing this way or doing the stroke this or that way - I have always believed my elbow should ideally point down throughout the stroke but my body orientation and the fact that I can't move never makes it look that way - my own view is that if it lets you hit the ball better do it.
You definitely play at a level most of us could only dream of. Keep it up!

 
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NextLevel;339022

Hey, Riche, haven't had time to really post here a for a while (life has changed quite a bit lol). Your backhand looks really good. If anything, the biggest lesson I have learned from my covid19 training period (before I stopped for all the changes in my life) is that there is no single backhand topspin technique for any player or for any ball, though there are usually distance/power limitations on some techniques and the more powerful ones tend to compromise reaction speed, hence most players use the quicker ones when rallying and the powerful ones when they need to generate on openers or away fromthe table. Ma Long uses a few, Harimoto uses a few, FZD uses a few and Dima uses a few etc. Your technique checks the boxes and is extremely versatile as you seem to hit all the shots that they do - you have quite a few backhands going on in there. My technique has changed a bit in the past year (it probably still looks the same, but my mental approach is different).All the advice about finishing this way or doing the stroke this or that way - I have always believed my elbow should ideally point down throughout the stroke but my body orientation and the fact that I can't move never makes it look that way - my own view is that if it lets you hit the ball better do it.

You definitely play at a level most of us could only dream of. Keep it up!

Agree fully. But would like to emphasize that last line. :)
 
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Wow, thanks so much all of you. I know all of you really know your stuff, I very much appreciate your comments. And thanks NL for your kind words, I'm glad you're keeping well and congrats on becoming a father!!

I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm complaining about my backhand. Just wanted to share how my mental model of the stroke has changed through time and it changed again, to some extent, when that player commented on it. I can only dream to get to his level😁 (he's rated 2700+ in Sweden and was veryy close to beating Michael Maze).
I'm not going to obsess over the elbow thing, just try to keep it at the back of my mind and let my bh flow more (which is what I tried the last few sessions since hearing the comment).

I've been lucky with training partners here in Sweden and that I've had some feeling for the ball from being heavily involved with another sport before table tennis.. but learning proper technique over the years has not been easy - I'm happy to hear that the effort has paid off. TTedge Brett Clarke and NL has helped me a lot with how to think about it. And lots of youtube videos. I love the process and it has helped me care less about winning or losing - instead I just enjoy hitting the damn ball on the table 😄, it's too addictive and the best stress relief 😀.
 
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I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm complaining about my backhand. Just wanted to share how my mental model of the stroke has changed through time and it changed again, to some extent, when that player commented on it. I can only dream to get to his level😁 (he's rated 2700+ in Sweden and was veryy close to beating Michael Maze).
I'm not going to obsess over the elbow thing, just try to keep it at the back of my mind and let my bh flow more (which is what I tried the last few sessions since hearing the comment).

Left-right or bottom-up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlBd0LWP6lM

In many other videos of ML doing BH he uses more bottom-up for the lower body, not much or no hip rotation. Do you think it is simply his way of BH stroke?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V40bnQdtzg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeRhwLrcEm8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xorMmMzwtU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6hq--SlAyk
 
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latej;339083Left-right or bottom-up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlBd0LWP6lM

In many other videos of ML doing BH he uses more bottom-up for the lower body, not much or no hip rotation. Do you think it is simply his way of BH stroke?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V40bnQdtzg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeRhwLrcEm8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xorMmMzwtU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6hq--SlAyk

I think the twist/hip rotation is more the older style backhand, which of course can still be used and effective, especially when there is time. The bottom-up/bowing motion seems to be the new technique most players these days go for. The player who told me about the forward swing pretty much only does that bowing up and down motion. It seems like ML used to do the twist and then adapted his technique to the newer version. For us maybe it doesn't make much difference what we go for, as long as it feels comfortable 😀. I try to do a small bowing motion and a tiny bit of hip rotation, but I try not to think about it too much.
 
I think the twist/hip rotation is more the older style backhand, which of course can still be used and effective, especially when there is time. The bottom-up/bowing motion seems to be the new technique most players these days go for. The player who told me about the forward swing pretty much only does that bowing up and down motion. It seems like ML used to do the twist and then adapted his technique to the newer version. For us maybe it doesn't make much difference what we go for, as long as it feels comfortable 😀. I try to do a small bowing motion and a tiny bit of hip rotation, but I try not to think about it too much.

In the video the subs say that "the point of contact should be in front of the belly", but what he actually does and what I believe is correct, is "in front of the chest".

 
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langel;339086

In the video the subs say that "the point of contact should be in front of the belly", but what he actually does and what I believe is correct, is "in front of the chest".

In table tennis, people describe how they feel, not how they look.

 
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I think the twist/hip rotation is more the older style backhand, which of course can still be used and effective, especially when there is time. The bottom-up/bowing motion seems to be the new technique most players these days go for. The player who told me about the forward swing pretty much only does that bowing up and down motion. It seems like ML used to do the twist and then adapted his technique to the newer version. For us maybe it doesn't make much difference what we go for, as long as it feels comfortable 😀. I try to do a small bowing motion and a tiny bit of hip rotation, but I try not to think about it too much.

The explanations are very helpful, very good video. Thanks.
 
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So the more and more I think about it, the correction of the finishing position that Richie described explains something that I have been trying to figure out for a while, Will have to see what it does at the table when I have a chance. My arthritis though usually doesn't let me do it in quite the way I think I should do it, but it does solve the problem of playing directly into the ball.
 
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langel;339086In the video the subs say that "the point of contact should be in front of the belly", but what he actually does and what I believe is correct, is "in front of the chest".

NextLevel;339087In table tennis, people describe how they feel, not how they look.

Actually I think langel has important point, at least for topspin against block/drive - it makes you go lower. If I remember, Dima Ovtcharov also stressed it.

Edit: I mean, I also first thought it is a bit nit-picking, but later realized it's not.
 
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latej;339096Actually I think langel has important point, at least for topspin against block/drive - it makes you go lower. If I remember, Dima Ovtcharov also stressed it.

Edit: I mean, I also first thought it is a bit nit-picking, but later realized it's not.

Trust me, if you look at what players describe and what they actually do, you will think many players are lying in table tennis. It is usually only when a player tells you what they are trying to do that you get a better idea of how it feels. Dima and Jang could both be right, could both be wrong or many combinations of the above. But when a good player tells you something, it doesn't mean it is right or wrong, they are telling you what they think. I'm just saying that being too specific about instructions is not how table tennis is played or learned because everything changes to adapt to spin and ball position. But the player is always telling you how he feels when he plays it. If he sees himself on camera sometimes, he will not believe how he looks.

 
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Trust me, if you look at what players describe and what they actually do, you will think many players are lying in table tennis. It is usually only when a player tells you what they are trying to do that you get a better idea of how it feels. Dima and Jang could both be right, could both be wrong or many combinations of the above. But when a good player tells you something, it doesn't mean it is right or wrong, they are telling you what they think. I'm just saying that being too specific about instructions is not how table tennis is played or learned because everything changes to adapt to spin and ball position.

You're right, it should be taken so.

But the player is always telling you how he feels when he plays it. If he sees himself on camera sometimes, he will not believe how he looks.

I can follow. Not recognizing myself helps definitely a lot in keeping good mood :).
 
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NextLevel;339095So the more and more I think about it, the correction of the finishing position that Richie described explains something that I have been trying to figure out for a while, Will have to see what it does at the table when I have a chance. My arthritis though usually doesn't let me do it in quite the way I think I should do it, but it does solve the problem of playing directly into the ball.

Curious to know what that something is 😀.

 
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I've been training a lot recently.

I've been focusing much less on classical FH and BH drills and much more on my main weaknesses:

- short game technique (stop, push, nagashi, flick)

- short game footwork: moving to the ball quickly and getting quickly back into positions

for both i also do multiball if i have the opportunity.
practicing for the above also made me work on serving short a lot

there are quite a few patterns
i serve short, opponent receives short, then i push long and counter or block the incoming attack
opponents serves short, i push long and counter or block the incoming attack
opponents serves short, i stop, opponents pushes long, i loop drive etc...
placement FH, BH middle etc...work with one placement then add uncertainty...

i did move back after doing a stop or push but had trouble keeping on moving and get ready for any ball coming next.

now i start to get the feeling and rhythm, and my pushes can be deadly when i execute well. Even the coach couldn't get them all back ! its really important to move fast to the ball then use the body a little bit at impact and quickly bounce back and look for those little extra steps. it really changes everything. It would seem muscles and velocity is what is needed most but IMHO the most difficult thing is to retrain the brain and chase the bad habits. We actually do have time to do all this. But we need to convince ourselves we do.

I'm happy to work on all this because i know i cannot match the young guys around just with power or fast footwork 2m from the table. But with a very good short game and footwork to support it, i think my overall level could go up by 1 or 2 notches easily and that i could challenge the best from our leagues.

PS yesterday my coach played a handicap game where he used penhold. I won 2-0 he said its the first time he lost anyone playing like that... lol...
indeed there is a video of a popular YouTuber losing to him this way. It made me a bit happy.
 
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Trust me, if you look at what players describe and what they actually do, you will think many players are lying in table tennis. It is usually only when a player tells you what they are trying to do that you get a better idea of how it feels. Dima and Jang could both be right, could both be wrong or many combinations of the above. But when a good player tells you something, it doesn't mean it is right or wrong, they are telling you what they think. I'm just saying that being too specific about instructions is not how table tennis is played or learned because everything changes to adapt to spin and ball position. But the player is always telling you how he feels when he plays it. If he sees himself on camera sometimes, he will not believe how he looks.

If he sees himself on camera sometimes, he will not believe how he looks.

Yep, I get that, recently someone took a short video of me playing backhand shots against the club robot. I thought i was pretty smart.
Then I looked at the video and I looked not smart at all, more like a decrepit Russian dancing bear 😆

 
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I've been training a lot recently.

I've been focusing much less on classical FH and BH drills and much more on my main weaknesses:

- short game technique (stop, push, nagashi, flick)

- short game footwork: moving to the ball quickly and getting quickly back into positions

for both i also do multiball if i have the opportunity.
practicing for the above also made me work on serving short a lot

there are quite a few patterns
i serve short, opponent receives short, then i push long and counter or block the incoming attack
opponents serves short, i push long and counter or block the incoming attack
opponents serves short, i stop, opponents pushes long, i loop drive etc...
placement FH, BH middle etc...work with one placement then add uncertainty...

i did move back after doing a stop or push but had trouble keeping on moving and get ready for any ball coming next.

now i start to get the feeling and rhythm, and my pushes can be deadly when i execute well. Even the coach couldn't get them all back ! its really important to move fast to the ball then use the body a little bit at impact and quickly bounce back and look for those little extra steps. it really changes everything. It would seem muscles and velocity is what is needed most but IMHO the most difficult thing is to retrain the brain and chase the bad habits. We actually do have time to do all this. But we need to convince ourselves we do.

I'm happy to work on all this because i know i cannot match the young guys around just with power or fast footwork 2m from the table. But with a very good short game and footwork to support it, i think my overall level could go up by 1 or 2 notches easily and that i could challenge the best from our leagues.

PS yesterday my coach played a handicap game where he used penhold. I won 2-0 he said its the first time he lost anyone playing like that... lol...
indeed there is a video of a popular YouTuber losing to him this way. It made me a bit happy.

I can't wait to get back training

 
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If he sees himself on camera sometimes, he will not believe how he looks.

Yep, I get that, recently someone took a short video of me playing backhand shots against the club robot. I thought i was pretty smart.
Then I looked at the video and I looked not smart at all, more like a decrepit Russian dancing bear 😆

Hmmm. the ole' decrepit Russian Bear...

I often play TT with a lot of Russians locally (there are enough Russians here to support two large Churches) I have not seen ANY of them as large as even myself, which Carl correctly calls me "Bear Size" and makes frequent comparisons.

There IS one dude who speaks Russian (but is from another country) who is very well known in the Sacramento area for decades. This gent is no Tiny Tim, he also has a unique play style and highly enjoys playing TT his way and mostly gets his fun from certain action in points and the rally going a certain way. He could care less if he loses the point.

This gent is easily 160 kg is a tiny bit mobile and very aptly fits your description of Dancing Bear, compared to him, I am size XS kid's stuff.

 
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We are very lucky in Japan to be able to play, and even participate in tournaments

Sunday, we took part in the semi-annual local league team tournament where we play in Division 2 (out of 6)
We played against 4 other teams. Format is 5 singles max, first team to 3 wins. Doubles cancelled because of Covid. We were 4 players in our team (possible to play with 5 players). Our team ace was missing and replaced by a B team player who doesn't have the Division 2 level so we were just hoping not to finish last to hopefully keep our Division 2 spot for next time.

Which we did by beating the weakest team whose team ace was also missing.

Personally i played 4 singles.

I beated the guy from the weakest team. He's a veteran penholder hitter. Still very good condition physically. I know him well and I'm like 2wins / 30+ defeats in training matches in 3+ years. and I won only the very first training match luckily. BUT i won the only tournament encounter 2 years ago, and i won recently a training match last month and the few other last ones were very close so i was quite confident. It was a tough match, i was dominated in game 1 but won game 2 closely, and in game 3 made a comeback from 3-7 and took it, and concluded game 4 11-4 !!! a good win for me. and I'm 2-0 against him in tournaments !!! LOL

The other players were even stronger. First guy, a young 2 wing attacker, I played him in tournament last month already and i thought i had a chance even though i lost 0-3
This time i played even better, and had early leads in every set, but i squandered it up with faulty serves and bad finition on a few crucial points. like at 6-4 in game 1. at 9-9 in game 3 with my serve i took some risks, but it didn't pay off. 0-3 (-8 -7 -9). I think i could have won because i was the one who had the initiative most of the time but thats TT.

another guy was a leftie penholder with no-sponge long pips. quite strong, and a medallist at WTTC paralympics (not sure what his handicap is, he looks valid). I thought id lose by large but although it was 0-3 it was only (-7 -7 -9) and i had leads in all games. He had a lot of problems with my BH loop spin even if the ball was slow or the ark high. Also problems in the middle. but OTOH dealing with his fast angled pushes and variations was difficult.

the last young guy was even stronger, one of the top players of the league (always in last 4). His BH going straight after the bounce put me more than 1m from the ball so many times. But in all these matches, i think i excelled in receiving, keeping the ball short and preventing them from attacking, or pushed long agressively forcing errors or easy loops. My serves also caused problems with their variations but once too often i'd serve weak and too high and get punished. lost 0-3 (-8 -4 -9) but still proud of my showing.

all these guys have strong shots, and their attacking shot quality is so good i can't do much when they can do it full power. But when i could attack first or prevent them to play these shots i clearly had a chance. I've also a worked a lot with my coach on in/out footwork after playing against a short serve or receive, that used a big weakness but its much better now although there's a lot of room for further improvement. I'm quite optimistic i can get even better results and start to be a real challenger to them next time. one or two years ago i would not have gone beyond 5 or 6 in each set
 
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Ha ha ha, I am not even half the weight of your mate the russion dancing bear.....................but don't forget the """decrepit""", I am very little "dancing "" and lots of "decrepit"". 😁

However, there are similarities, as long as I can sweat a bit and get the odd point here and there I will happily keep on playing 😉

 
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