Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

Lula said:

I have been a coach with our new chinese coach a couple of times now. It seems like he focus more on how they move and less on how they do the stroke. I am more towards to the opposite, fix the stroke first then learn to move. But maybe the chinese coaches think the footwork is much more important. Do not know what is best. What do you think? I think we in europe do not know so much about footwork so it is harder for us to focus on it.

I am also a fan of shadowtraining, and it seems like he likes it to since he does that alot, with much focus on the footwork.

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Both are very important obviously. It all depends on what level you are training the player for and whether it is likely to change upwards or not. If you are training the player for high level, focus on footwork. For Lower levels, focus on strokes. Both are important though and everyone needs weapons to end the point but moving to a ball you cannot hit is discouraging. Hitting a ball works in the beginning but once you form bad reaching instincts, they can be hard to to correct even harder than fixing a stroke.

A while ago i talked about trying to push more behind the ball and not under, to be able to push fast.
The guy in this video mention it a little, that you want to hit the table with the racket. But he seems to focus more on the followthrough, i want to hit the racket because i go more from up to down and hit behind the ball.

What i am aiming at is almost like the guy, but i think he can hit more with an closed racket angle and push more down. Pretty hard to do at the moment for me, hard to make it safe. But Eli push in the video is way to slow i think. I want to do it much more aggressive and get a faster return. With his push they can still do an pretty good opening loop i think. But maybe he can be more aggressive.

I just wanted to explain further what i have meant. Have not practiced it so much tho. Have alot i am working on. Backhand kill: try to have the racket higher and loop more forward, try to smash forehand and not move the front side of the elbow to much forward, Block more with the body and take it earlier, smash back against a loop like a block but just accelerate in the end, fh flick with just the wrist and banana flick, try to have the racket higher when blocking, have a much higher throw in the serve. Some things are getting better i think. But i think these things can improve my game alot.

thats funny

Samson Dubina came to the Akron club today to help our two players that qualified for Nationals and to promote his new club. He took us through two drills for footwork and two for serve receive, helping with our strokes or mechanics as he watched us drill. I have never been so instantly sore from table tennis in my life. But I played better after the hour of drills than I ever really have. He pointed out that my biggest issue is that when I play my forehand I jump and turn my feet to a backhand dominant stance. So I can follow up a FH with a BH well, but if I have to hit 2 FH in a row I'm pretty heartily boned. So lots of work coming on that. Awesome night but I foresee serious problems with simple locomotion tomorrow...

Side note, when Samson's club opens it'll be the 4th biggest in the US which is a big deal for little Akron, Ohio!

thekleifheit13 said:

Samson Dubina came to the Akron club today to help our two players that qualified for Nationals and to promote his new club. He took us through two drills for footwork and two for serve receive, helping with our strokes or mechanics as he watched us drill. I have never been so instantly sore from table tennis in my life. But I played better after the hour of drills than I ever really have. He pointed out that my biggest issue is that when I play my forehand I jump and turn my feet to a backhand dominant stance. So I can follow up a FH with a BH well, but if I have to hit 2 FH in a row I'm pretty heartily boned. So lots of work coming on that. Awesome night but I foresee serious problems with simple locomotion tomorrow...

Side note, when Samson's club opens it'll be the 4th biggest in the US which is a big deal for little Akron, Ohio!

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You also Do not get much power from the body and the legs in the loop if you loose your feet.

Progress report:

ttmonster felt I should play players who are 'boom boom' instead of my 2 regular games partners who are 65 and 70 yrs old and are slower-paced players but if given the chance to attack they would.

65 yrs old friend: I really should be able to beat convincingly but he is steady and always returning the ball. He is about my level if not 1 level below believe it or not. I am my own worst enemy! Rushing my shots!

70 yrs old friend: is a 2 winged JPen attacker with conservative serves I am able to push or RPB loop. He is overall 1 to 2 levels above me as I see him playing other players above my level and they have long rallies and good attacks. With him, I am able to put the ball mostly away from his comfort attacking zone.

Onto the boom boom players...

Last week it was late, practiced with B. ~1900 SH double-winged attacker, 39 yrs old ... tall and long arms/legs, generally gets to most balls. Before leaving we played one game. Losing 10-8, i forced a deuce. Lost at 11. About 2 years ago, before self-learning RPB, I lost to him easily. The difference this game is partly my RPB, but also partly because I'm not rushing my shots like I used to. Playing my 2 regular games partners has helped me somewhat not to rush my shots.

Playing B though, he is dangerous as he has killer FH/BH loops. He has 2 serves which trick me many times. But overall, my RPB loop and RPB punch has helped me a bit, as well as the return of my FH loop, or more correctly my confidence in my FH loop is coming back due to neglect while training RPB for a year.

Played B. Monday night, lost 3-0, but scores are closer now than 2 years ago, when I lost easily at 4 and 5. Sadly I didn't remember to video our practice as well as match. Good warmup practice and I had 2 highlight worthy points. My left knee is still achy and not 100% but getting better. One serve he served short side-down to my FH and I was able to 'fly' over and loop it cross court for a winner surprising him and the people sitting/watching waiting for next. Another point, I served sidetop and he popped up, I 3rd ball smashed to his FH, he plays mid-distance away from the table and is tall and able to get to the ball and lob it back, I smashed 5th ball to his FH and he lobbed back and I waited to 'quick smash' the 7th ball to his BH - that is I smashed as the ball was ready to bounce up, quickening the tempo/rhythm and able to win the point convincingly. Really wished I video'd that match, but in a way I am glad I didn't because then ttmonster and JeffM may ask me for 9 points instead if they saw those 2 highlights ... LOL at me!

Played him tonight and lost 3-2, close games except for 5th where I lost focus/concentration somewhat early and he jumped to a 6-2 lead and won the decider at 5. I believe tonight's match was the only time I ever won 2 games off of him. Afterwards we chatted and he mentioned I improved a lot. I chalk it up to slowing down at times and not rushing my shots. I thanked him for his kind words. Part of my success is my spinny serves and part of my success was my nospin serves! THANK YOU NEXTLEVEL!

In the past 4-5 months, I have been forcing a 2nd or 3rd ball attack either RPB loop or FH loop. Lost many a point, but it's conditioning myself to get back that attacking mindset and to get my RPB looping going. Also in the past month I have been pushing more to set up a RPB or FH loop instead of forcing it. My pushing is varied, side to side with angled pushes, long, short/float/touch some back. Losing some points as I still don't have the 'touch' down quite yet, and sometimes I push too long but it's getting there. I am getting deeper into the point and am successful with my RPB block/punch/loop and FH loops. To think about 5 or 6 months ago, I had zero confidence in my FH loop ... i was hesitant and lost many a point.

Monday I played a rusty 2000 SH power FH looper. For a big guy, he moves very fast pivoting to 2nd ball FH loop down the line. Even if my left knee wasn't achy, his FH loops are too fast/strong for slow me to get to my FH. He hasn't come in a few months, in the process of selling house/moving. I played him a few times in the past and got smoked easily. Although back then I had no FH loop and my RPB was not consistent enough yet. I actually won the first game but he didn't really warm up. He won next 2 with me getting 6-8 pts. 4th game, lost focus/concentration and he won easily at 5. He wanted to play one more game, it was very late and past the regular time I leave 7:30-8pm. Lost that 5th game at 4. I left at 9pm! Club/recreation center closes at 9:45pm. After our games, he mentioned that I improved a lot. I thanked him for his kind words. Told him it was my honor to play him even if I got home late and my wife yelling at me LOLOL. Part of my success is my spinny serves and part of my success was my nospin serves! THANK YOU NEXTLEVEL YET AGAIN!

Playing my 2 regular games partners, I have been pushing more and being more patient. I am still losing to them, but scores are much more closer.

I can't help but be a bit happy with my progress/improvement. But I think I will jinx myself now after writing that and play like a 1300 again LOLOLOL

Thank you my Friends if you read all that!

Very truly yours in TT,

~osph

OldschoolPenholder said:

Progress report:

Really wished I video'd that match, but in a way I am glad I didn't because then ttmonster and JeffM may ask me for 9 points instead if they saw those 2 highlights ... LOL at me!

~osph

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Glad to hear you have been progressing well OSPH!
I will be asking for 9 points anyway video or not
Just found out you have a youtube channel from your bottom signature, so i subscribed XD

The summer pennant has finished, and I played in 4 out of 7 of those rounds. I performed well in terms of results in the first 2 rounds, winning against players of higher ranking, but in the last 2 rounds, I lost to players with much lower ranking, so my rating peaked to a high height and then fell back to where it was originally lol.
I was not at my best form for the last 2 rounds, as I have not been able to practice with any body in between the match days, and I don't think that I can play pennant if I cant practice in between. My work roster simply does not allow it, and there are so many things piled up to be completed on my day off (like today). [h=1]"人在江湖，身不由己"[/h]I did focus on moving more in the last round, and despite losing one of the matches, I felt more in form in the 2nd match, and more in control.

I believe footwork to be the most important aspect of todays game. Good footwork gives you the chance to get to the ball with correct form (and balance) to perform the strokes which leads to both consistency and power. The higher up in level you get the more important footwork becomes, like NextLevel pointed out.

Lula said:

I have been a coach with our new chinese coach a couple of times now. It seems like he focus more on how they move and less on how they do the stroke. I am more towards to the opposite, fix the stroke first then learn to move. But maybe the chinese coaches think the footwork is much more important. Do not know what is best. What do you think? I think we in europe do not know so much about footwork so it is harder for us to focus on it.

I am also a fan of shadowtraining, and it seems like he likes it to since he does that alot, with much focus on the footwork.

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RidTheKid said:

I believe footwork to be the most important aspect of todays game. Good footwork gives you the chance to get to the ball with correct form (and balance) to perform the strokes which leads to both consistency and power. The higher up in level you get the more important footwork becomes, like NextLevel pointed out.

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Yes, i totally agree with you. I understand that it is important, and have always thought so.

But i have been playing for almost 20 years and been coaching for part time over 10 years. I have had pretty good coaches, met others and seen alot of tabletennis. Never come across a coach that focus this much on footwork. The stroke seems secondary to the footwork. I have asked other guys that work as coaches full time and tried to do some research, it seems like in europe we focus on the hand/arm and in china more on the feet and the legs. But i think europe do not know so much about footwork patterns and how to move so maybe it is hard for us to teach that.

Edit: i think you really understand what i mean if you ever had a chinese coach. I have personally problem with that they have bad form in forehand loop and we do footwork, since i focus on the stroke first. But he seems to think it is okay, atleast now because he focus on the feet more in first hand.

True, the focus in China vs Europe are different. I think Europe would gain from getting more inspiration from the Chinese philosophies of the game. For instance they do a minimum of 100 fh to land successfully in a row on the table as warm up, you don't move on to bh before you're finished with those 100 fh's. They put a lot of focus on the basics, which I think is a good way to go. If I was younger I'd go to one of those summer camps for a few weeks, I think that would open up a whole new world to the sport for me, a revelation of sorts

Lula said:

Yes, i totally agree with you. I understand that it is important, and have always thought so.

But i have been playing for almost 20 years and been coaching for part time over 10 years. I have had pretty good coaches, met others and seen alot of tabletennis. Never come across a coach that focus this much on footwork. The stroke seems secondary to the footwork. I have asked other guys that work as coaches full time and tried to do some research, it seems like in europe we focus on the hand/arm and in china more on the feet and the legs. But i think europe do not know so much about footwork patterns and how to move so maybe it is hard for us to teach that.

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RidTheKid said:

True, the focus in China vs Europe are different. I think Europe would gain from getting more inspiration from the Chinese philosophies of the game. For instance they do a minimum of 100 fh to land successfully in a row on the table as warm up, you don't move on to bh before you're finished with those 100 fh's. They put a lot of focus on the basics, which I think is a good way to go. If I was younger I'd go to one of those summer camps for a few weeks, I think that would open up a whole new world to the sport for me, a revelation of sorts

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Yes, i think personally many coaches do to difficult drills. I prefer to do very easy drills, try to focus on the form and try to play soft so they get to repeat the strokes many times. To many players play way to hard in drills i think. But i try to do some footworks aswell, but i focus more on the form than on the footwork at the moment. Maybe i need to focus a little more on footwork, after all it is difficult to have the same form all the time if you do not move well. But i do not know enough about footwork to really teach it. The chinese coach teach some footwork patterns i have never seen or heard of before.

Lula said:

Yes, i think personally many coaches do to difficult drills. I prefer to do very easy drills, try to focus on the form and try to play soft so they get to repeat the strokes many times. To many players play way to hard in drills i think. But i try to do some footworks aswell, but i focus more on the form than on the footwork at the moment. Maybe i need to focus a little more on footwork, after all it is difficult to have the same form all the time if you do not move well. But i do not know enough about footwork to really teach it. The chinese coach teach some footwork patterns i have never seen or heard of before.

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I am a bit jealous, if I was there I would be taping this coach all the time.

Haha, i am also a bit jealous at the kids i an coaching. I think they had better opportunities than i had at that age before. Proably One of swedens best training halls, organized training and We coaches know somewhat much and most important are helping everyone and are motivated. This was not the cause when i was at their age. Now it is even better with the chinese coach that We call Bosse. Pretty fun name by the way. Bosse is a Classic old swedish name. His real name is Bao i Think. He have also owned a sibylla, which is like a fastfood place, We swedes call it garukök where you sell hot dogs and hamburgers so he has become pretty swedish i Think.

I am trying to write down all stuff that i learn or see him Do when i come home. Difficult to tape him when i am a coaching the kids with him.

If i get the time and if he wants ro Maybe i can try to tape him when he show some footwork, But Do not know if he is interested.

Lula said:

Haha, i am also a bit jealous at the kids i an coaching. I think they had better opportunities than i had at that age before. Proably One of swedens best training halls, organized training and We coaches know somewhat much and most important are helping everyone and are motivated. This was not the cause when i was at their age. Now it is even better with the chinese coach that We call Bosse. Pretty fun name by the way. Bosse is a Classic old swedish name. His real name is Bao i Think. He have also owned a sibylla, which is like a fastfood place, We swedes call it garukök where you sell hot dogs and hamburgers so he has become pretty swedish i Think.

I am trying to write down all stuff that i learn or see him Do when i come home. Difficult to tape him when i am a coaching the kids with him.

If i get the time and if he wants ro Maybe i can try to tape him when he show some footwork, But Do not know if he is interested.

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Come on Lula, just tape and post to the forum. Use unlisted on YouTube. Thanks in advance

The reason I ask for these things is not so much because I want to actually learn high level footwork, it is because I want to hope to understand high level table tennis better. The more I learn the more aware I am of how little I know.

RidTheKid said:

True, the focus in China vs Europe are different. I think Europe would gain from getting more inspiration from the Chinese philosophies of the game. For instance they do a minimum of 100 fh to land successfully in a row on the table as warm up, you don't move on to bh before you're finished with those 100 fh's. They put a lot of focus on the basics, which I think is a good way to go. If I was younger I'd go to one of those summer camps for a few weeks, I think that would open up a whole new world to the sport for me, a revelation of sorts

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Very true. My sons coach told me once that getting 100 fh's successfully in a row is good. In my mind I was like wow!!! thats kind of tough. After a little pause she said 200 is better..., but 300 is best. Then she said 1000 should be the goal.

I also think it is very important that they have good form. 100 fh with bad form is not good. Almost the opposite in my opinion. Much better with 20 fh with good form i think.

I will try to film myself when i learn to move like he wants. It is difficult. Like learning to walk again. He is not the best at explaining either so it is hard haha.

I have decided that i will not coach the last best, oldest group anymore. Now with one more coach i have the possibility to train that time myself. I think i will join their practice instead and see if i can learn something from the chinese. Waited almost 10 years for anyone to give me advice, focus on me or just say something. It is fun to coach others and help others, but i have missed the opportunity that anyone can for once help me and give me advice. It is also tough to be a coach, for many years i have been coaching 4 hours straight and it takes alot of energy. I have also have some health issues and i feel that it is important for my well being to try to move a little everyday and do something fun.

Maybe you are not so interested by this, but sometimes it is just nice to share stuff with people, even if you do not know them so well.

Oh my Guoyuehua!

Tonight, George Braithwaite was waiting on my table to hit with one of my regular games partners, the 70 yr old JPenner. GB watched me play a match with Y., a SH that has LP on his BH, whom I usually lose to because for now I've not learnt how to recognize what he does with the LP yet. He also has speedy footwork and good FH loop, can attack with his BH LP and return most balls. He is ~1800-1900. He sometimes is offensive and sometimes defensive. He is perhaps 60 yrs old. I still rush my shots with him due to fear of his LP lol Sooner or later I will be able to slow down and not rush vs him. Y. is always supportive and trying to help me improve as well as J. the 70 yr old JPenner.

I lost 3-0 to Y. but had some decent points/shots. George Braithwaite recalled a few months ago watching me play and commented that I lacked confidence and too hesitant when I went for a FH loop. I explained to him then that I neglected my FH loop for a year as i tried to learn RPB. After the match with Y. tonight, he complimented me on my improvement. I thanked him kindly for his gracious compliment.

OK, so I'm not 1300 now, but improved to 1400 ;-)

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JeffM said:

Glad to hear you have been progressing well OSPH!
I will be asking for 9 points anyway video or not

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Thank you Si-hing! So we start our games 9-9? LOL

Just found out you have a youtube channel from your bottom signature, so i subscribed XD

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Thank you, although I'm not on YT much. Haven't had any videos to upload. I don't recall if I subscribed to your channel or not. Please post it and I'll subscribe.

The summer pennant has finished, and I played in 4 out of 7 of those rounds. I performed well in terms of results in the first 2 rounds, winning against players of higher ranking, but in the last 2 rounds, I lost to players with much lower ranking, so my rating peaked to a high height and then fell back to where it was originally lol.

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Sometimes lower ranked players are underrated. Sometimes one loses focus/concentration when playing lower ranked players. They concentrate more vs higher ranked players.

I was not at my best form for the last 2 rounds, as I have not been able to practice with any body in between the match days, and I don't think that I can play pennant if I cant practice in between. My work roster simply does not allow it, and there are so many things piled up to be completed on my day off (like today). "人在江湖，身不由己"

I did focus on moving more in the last round, and despite losing one of the matches, I felt more in form in the 2nd match, and more in control.

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Sadly, I'm an illiterate ABC (juk sing) and not a FOB (juk kok). However, I recognize the first 4 characters and guessed the rest as I know the phrase from watching TVB's wuxia series LOL

TT is just a hobby, take care of Real Life first. Given your situation with work and things you must take care of in your off days, you played well in the summer pennant beating 2 higher ranked players! Sooner or later, the time will come when you have time to train/play TT. In the days I don't get to go to the club, I shadow stroke for 5 mins ... better than nothing. Or watch some videos of PH in action for inspiration.

Good luck!

Lula said:

But i try to do some footworks aswell, but i focus more on the form than on the footwork at the moment. Maybe i need to focus a little more on footwork, after all it is difficult to have the same form all the time if you do not move well. But i do not know enough about footwork to really teach it. The chinese coach teach some footwork patterns i have never seen or heard of before.

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NextLevel said:

I am a bit jealous, if I was there I would be taping this coach all the time.

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NextLevel said:

Come on Lula, just tape and post to the forum. Use unlisted on YouTube. Thanks in advance ������.

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NextLevel said:

The reason I ask for these things is not so much because I want to actually learn high level footwork, it is because I want to hope to understand high level table tennis better. The more I learn the more aware I am of how little I know.

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I do have to agree with NextLevel on this. Sometimes seeing that stuff is really helpful even to someone who is not going to do it. Understanding is valuable.

Mark Croitoroo, when he went to Europe and China to train to try and get his level way up, before he injured his shoulder, he said the coaches started working with him on tracking the ball with his feet. That many of us (Mark included) track the ball with our arm and racket. And that they were trying to teach him to track the ball with his feet so even if the ball placement was only a few cm over, he moved instead of adjusting racket and upper body, he was supposed to move his feet.

He tried to do some of that work with me back then. Because, if he had that problem, I had it even more. It was interesting. Him and Mike Landers also were trying to get me to move, and then backswing after moving rather than how I would backswing while moving. When I got the backswing after moving to the spot, the stroke had A LOT MORE WHIP and a lot more waist and legs in it. So getting to the spot and then backswinging gave the shots a lot more spin, speed and power. Just by getting the technicals with the feet sharpened and not by swinging harder or better.

Anyway, I want to circle back to NL's point about learning and understanding:

When I was in the circus 25 years ago, I could do a lot of things I really cannot do so well anymore. I teach yoga. Because of my understanding of the body with what I do and what I have done, I can help people who have more limited capabilities than I do. And I am pretty good at that. But I can also help people who can do stuff I never even could do. Part of it is that I watch and pay attention so I can figure out how to help those people with their body mechanics and with how to learn what they are trying to do. But also that I understand how to do things that the body can do. Even if I cannot do them anymore or even if I never could do them.

So a player like NL who has joint restrictions, if he understands stuff from watching and seeing, he still will be able to help others refine and improve.

So, I say make the videos. Post the videos. And I want to watch them too.