Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

OhWell said:

If I recall correctly, you mentioned before that the rotation can be achieved with different parts of the arm or the shoulder depending on preference. But when using full strokes, what about the overall arm trajectory compared to a looping stroke that doesn't attempt to cover the ball? Do you recommend exploring ball covering/no covering while maintaining the arm trajectory constant?

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What is a looping stroke that doesn't attempt to cover the ball? Can't make sense of your question. You can create the rotation with the body as well. This part of the reason why most high level table tennis players lean forward, it is people like me with bad knees who excessively rely on using the arm to play forward when leaning forward creates the same effect.

NextLevel said:

What is a looping stroke that doesn't attempt to cover the ball? Can't make sense of your question. You can create the rotation with the body as well. This part of the reason why most high level table tennis players lean forward, it is people like me with bad knees who excessively rely on using the arm to play forward when leaning forward creates the same effect.

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I might have used the wrong term. I mean wrapping around the ball using circular motion, as you describe elsewhere, instead of keeping the blade at a more steady angle for a given incoming ball.

OhWell said:

I might have used the wrong term. I mean wrapping around the ball using circular motion, as you describe elsewhere, instead of keeping the blade at a more steady angle for a given incoming ball.

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Watch the pros loop, do you see them keep the blade angle steady for any incoming ball? They swing according to a rotational or helicopter principle. They hit the ball with a turning stroke. How does the blade angle stay constant with a turning stroke that salutes at the forehead etc.

It all depends on where they make contact with the ball. But what I will say is that watch what the pros do, don't always read too much into their descriptions of what they do. The descriptions are sometimes correct, but they sometimes just report what they think which as someone pointed at be the result of an adjustment process 20 years ago (I mean in childhood) that the brain did and deceived them into thinking was something else.

Here is a supposed example of what someone who is preaching keeping a stable angle would call a stable angle forehand topspin. Listen to the instructions provided and see if the angle is stable. What they really mean is do not d-ump or lift up the elbow habitually to a height higher than the racket to close over the ball and get spin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoAQA3JgaXQ

Tomorrow we will have a quite though league match. Yesterday was my first normal training after a month (only league matches, no training). I could play surprizingly well, despite that I lost to our two top 10 U13 player, both 3-1. I played with a borrowed spare racket, because I forgot that my glue bottle is empty and I wanted to switch to new rubber. I will glue them before the league match and I will write a comperitive review about this one (Gewo Hype KR 47.5) and the recently used rubbers (T80, T64,. EL-S, MX-P, the Tenergies were borrowed)

Good luck and have fun!

ajtatosmano2 said:

Tomorrow we will have a quite though league match. Yesterday was my first normal training after a month (only league matches, no training). I could play surprizingly well, despite that I lost to our two top 10 U13 player, both 3-1. I played with a borrowed spare racket, because I forgot that my glue bottle is empty and I wanted to switch to new rubber. I will glue them before the league match and I will write a comperitive review about this one (Gewo Hype KR 47.5) and the recently used rubbers (T80, T64,. EL-S, MX-P, the Tenergies were borrowed)

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Hit 3 hours straight last night. One of the coaches at the club asked me to just block for 2 people. First one a beginner but has decent and steady enough FH. Last night was only the 2nd time he hit BH. For a beginner, he seems to be steady enough and understands the strokes. Credit to him and the coach. 15 mins.

2nd - my 2nd time hitting with her. Ages ago, we hit before. I haven't seen her in some time. 2 hrs 45 mins. She has a FH topspin stroke close-to-the-table. Although I was purely blocking, it was interesting to see from my side how she was stroking the ball. pretty consistent and spinny, going 70% or so. Exactly what i should be working on. Then her BH is ok, not as good as her FH. Then she hit 1 BH to my BH and then pivoted to hit 2 FH to my BH and repeat.

On some of them she went and upped it a notch or 2 and with the Tenergy FX-80, it went back fast at her and she couldn't reset in time. As her coach was there, it was not my place to clue her in on what was happening.

Then we pushed. I have timing issues in getting to the ball earlier. Still pushing back high at times with the tensor rubbers. i pushed for placement side to side and also tried to push back to short middle.

Although I didn't work on my FH short stroke loop or RPB, i got to practice other aspects of my game despite being purely blocking. Good practice last night.

no video.

NextLevel said:

Watch the pros loop, do you see them keep the blade angle steady for any incoming ball? They swing according to a rotational or helicopter principle. They hit the ball with a turning stroke. How does the blade angle stay constant with a turning stroke that salutes at the forehead etc.

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This is very interesting. Is it helpful to distinguish these two functions for shift in blade angle?

1. Aerodynamics of the swing.

2. Odds of making contact with the ball that will generate a target ball trajectory/spin/etc.

(Not saying they are mutually exclusive. Just asking whether you think it's helpful to distinguish these two roles that shifting the blade angle through the swing can play.)

Aerodynamics of the swing? I don't think we're moving our bodies enough for aerodynamics to realistically come into play with anything but the ball.

If you're only talking about the blade's attack angle relative to it's path, then I guess.

OhWell said:

This is very interesting. Is it helpful to distinguish these two functions for shift in blade angle?

1. Aerodynamics of the swing.

2. Odds of making contact with the ball that will generate a target ball trajectory/spin/etc.

(Not saying they are mutually exclusive. Just asking whether you think it's helpful to distinguish these two roles that shifting the blade angle through the swing can play.)

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NOTE: My goal is not to be an engineer (been there, done that). My goal is to help people improve their table tennis. Again, "aerodynamics" is a loaded term.

That said, my main point is that *trying* to keep the blade angle steady when looping can mean a lot of things - the blade angle is definitely not steady and mostly needs to be timed to follow the shape of the ball when looping or driving with spin. The main reason why people give this "stable angle" advice is that when people deliberately try to turn the ball at a specific point in the swing to get spin with a wrist jerk or some other sudden motion, they reduce the speed of their larger swing and end up having strokes that are not powerful. The point of a large rotational swing is to enable you to get significant speed and power from the swing at one time. There are many ways of getting good power/speed/spin from a large rotational swing and you can see that *none * of the players in the top 10 have literally identical swings, though the good players all use significant core, leg and back work to support powerful strokes.

Timing the ball often requires you to shorten your swing or to swing relatively slowly until you line up with the ball and then accelerate when the ball is closer to your racket. It is on such faster balls when caught out of position or the ball doesn't quite show up where they expect that you tend to see the pros make more subtle but visible angle adjustments with wrist etc. But the goal is general is to have a large quick swing that generates both power and spin.

I try to teach looping a lot and the usual first instinct which I cannot cure adults of is to focus on putting the ball on the table. But I keep telling them that the first instinct should be to develop a fast circular swing. Where the circularity comes from is up to you as long as it doesn't injure you. There was a guy here who used to to post (baumschule or something like that) whose swing had a very interesting forearm motion which I used to use (I am considering going back to it) and which is similar to that which Freitas uses, only he used to habitually finish low. Mizutani uses that forearm motion on basically everything he does.

The main reason you don't want to swing that way often is that you want a stroke that lines up with the ball for most of the path of the swing to increase consistency. This will give you the most bang for your buck if you have good footwork. If you can improve consistency by having a spinny swing that lines up for tricky balls to produce traditional topspin as your base stroke (every pro can do this), then your other strokes and swings are what they are since no one is ever in perfect position all the time.

So the key is to turn the ball. The timing demands of turning the ball with a powerful fast strokes lead to certain compromises etc. In the ITTF tutorial, they actually spent a moment showing you what Freitas's preferred wrist action is for adding spin to the ball when he is at contact. That to me says a lot even though it may not say much to others who don't think it is important.

Der_Echte said:

Oh Well,

You have had Karis on BH for a little while, is it doing what you need it to do?

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To be honest I haven’t been thinking about Karis M very much. It’s like a good pair of shoes, getting out of the way for me to just pay attention to what my body is doing.

So: no surprises, and my initial impressions haven’t changed; I love the linearity and the feel; and I love the fact that my technique feels like the main limiting factor for how much spin I can put on the ball, never the rubber.

I’m not saying it’s the end all, be all backhand rubber for me. But right now it fits my needs so well that thinking about backhand rubbers feels like a waste of time.

Trained today. Took a lot of footage. 99% of the time it's picking up the ball, and nothing very remarkable happened so I'm not gonna weed through all the crap to edit it.

However the advice I got earlier helped me figure out some things. My form is now actually kinda consistent with what I *think* it is. So I can start making it better.

First thing I need to do is get rid of the angle-opening that happens mid swing. It does not happen on my better shots, so that is my reference. If you want to "cover the ball" then I am doing the opposite very often. My idea of how vertical my swing is, and how vertical it really is, doesn't line up completely yet.

OldschoolPenholder said:

Double-edged sword: as a TPB PH, if you are in your BH side, and you hit to my BH, i will punch it down the line, if you make it to your FH and hit to my BH, i will block and/or punch it to your BH. But yeah, better the TPB BH than face a monster FH.

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Of course it's a double edged sword, everything in TT is...even if you make the perfect decision and deliver the perfect shot. Nothing is guaranteed really.

As someone who played TBP in the past (and presently for fun) I know well the TPB punch. But most Jpeners don't have nearly the footwork they think they do, and so going to the wide BH is good for either a winner (spinny or fast), or a setup for a shot to their forehand. So, should they punch to my FH I would then counter to the wide forehand. The goal of course is for me to move less and the JPEN to move more which might have helped me later.

Really the only reason I didn't win every BH attack to his BH was not because he blocked it, but because I missed as I was not used to doing the sequence, nor my equipment. (remember, normally LP on my BH on a defensive blade). Once I dialed the BH, he didn't return but just a couple of the balls that landed. And that was after knowing exactly what I was going to do, because I was forcing the tactic to learn it.

To reiterate, the tactic was a short backhand under or sidespin serve to the forehand. They usually push or bump those over the net, and then I loop or flick to the wide backhand. Becasue they are extended reaching for the serve across the table with their FH, it's very difficult to go back to the BH...especially with TPB.

In the later sets I then changed my BH direction to the FH every other point and he was lost. Nice to be on the delivering side of this tactic rather than the receiving side.

OldschoolPenholder said:

Hit 3 hours straight last night. One of the coaches at the club asked me to just block for 2 people. First one a beginner but has decent and steady enough FH. Last night was only the 2nd time he hit BH. For a beginner, he seems to be steady enough and understands the strokes. Credit to him and the coach. 15 mins.

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Which club is this where a Coach would assign a higher level player to hit wit beginners for 3hrs STRAIGHT?!?!? =P

pingpongholic10 said:

Which club is this where a Coach would assign a higher level player to hit wit beginners for 3hrs STRAIGHT?!?!? =P

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LOLOL, no one called next, and I was having fun too.

OhWell said:

To be honest I haven’t been thinking about Karis M very much. It’s like a good pair of shoes, getting out of the way for me to just pay attention to what my body is doing.

So: no surprises, and my initial impressions haven’t changed; I love the linearity and the feel; and I love the fact that my technique feels like the main limiting factor for how much spin I can put on the ball, never the rubber.

I’m not saying it’s the end all, be all backhand rubber for me. But right now it fits my needs so well that thinking about backhand rubbers feels like a waste of time.

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That is a good true and honest assessment of Karis.

I can spin like crazy with it, others players see it, like the spin I get and want a sheet. Usually, after a few weeks, they are not as enthusiastic about it as they don't get my level of spin so easy, however, they land shots and stay in points...



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Hype KR Pro 47.5 initial impressions:
very reliable, strong grip, insensitive to spin, feels soft due to the soft topsheet, speed between EL-S and MX-P, spin is good on loops and short game, but somewhat predictable, not so spinny serves, Tenergy like catapult effect, great control, high throw angle.

I found that it's hard to beat the opponents with spin. You can generate great spin with it easily, but it wont force too many errors. I think this area will be better after some time after the glueing and with adjusting technique. But on the other hand it's the easiest rubber to use I ever met. Especially on higher gears: I couldn't miss a third ball attack or a high ball. Short game is extremely comfortable too, I did some FZD style deceptive flicks too. It doesn't matter how hard you hit, the control stays the same, or it gets even better as the sponge starts working.
First I was disappointed about the amount of spin I can generate, especially on the serves, but as I said it will get better with time IMO and I get a plenty of control in exchange. Also, I started to use reserve pendulum serves and I could vary the backspin/sidespin/topspin with subtle changes in the contact point. Overall, I am satisfied with it. Next report comes next week.

ajtatosmano2 said:

Hype KR Pro 47.5 initial impressions:
very reliable, strong grip, insensitive to spin, feels soft due to the soft topsheet, speed between EL-S and MX-P, spin is good on loops and short game, but somewhat predictable, not so spinny serves, Tenergy like catapult effect, great control, high throw angle.

I found that it's hard to beat the opponents with spin. You can generate great spin with it easily, but it wont force too many errors. I think this area will be better after some time after the glueing and with adjusting technique. But on the other hand it's the easiest rubber to use I ever met. Especially on higher gears: I couldn't miss a third ball attack or a high ball. Short game is extremely comfortable too, I did some FZD style deceptive flicks too. It doesn't matter how hard you hit, the control stays the same, or it gets even better as the sponge starts working.
First I was disappointed about the amount of spin I can generate, especially on the serves, but as I said it will get better with time IMO and I get a plenty of control in exchange. Also, I started to use reserve pendulum serves and I could vary the backspin/sidespin/topspin with subtle changes in the contact point. Overall, I am satisfied with it. Next report comes next week.

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Sounds a lot like MX-S.

NextLevel said:

Sounds a lot like MX-S.

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KR has both a softer sponge and topsheet in comparison, but it has a really peculiar property where it feels incredibly predictable as you increase the power of your shot. So even though it has more catapult and a softer overall feel than MX-S, it gives off a similar feeling of solidity and linearity when hitting hard. The best comparison I can come up with is that KR is like a very smooth feeling EL-S.

I like it a lot and keep it on my backup blade. I seem to play slightly better with Rasanter, but I enjoy using KR more. If I wasn't mid-season then I'd spend a lot more time with it.

I couldn't describe it better