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    #10681
    Thelonious Monk always wanted a table tennis table near his "office" too, either at the rehearsal studio, the recording one, or at festivals, seems that jazzmen are avid TT players, like also famous jazz drummer Jack DeJohnette

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    Last edited by Music&Ping; 03-01-2021 at 07:25 PM.

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    #10682



    Monk vs Samy Davis Jr.


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    #10683


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    #10684
    Hey guys, just wanted to share a video of my practice this afternoon.
    I am still seeing physio for my knee, it still isn't back to the level where I can simply focus on tt without worrying whether I will be limping tomorrow.
    But I am making progress with strengthening my thigh muscles to compensate for it.

    As always, feedback welcome.
    Thanks.

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  5. latej is offline
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    #10685

    Really interesting to hear top-profi.

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    #10686


    Yeah I've watched Timo's analysis, really good one !


  7. latej is offline
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    #10687

    A good reminder of how we live in the past...

    It's good from start, at around 3:45 he explains it is physically impossible to do something at the moment of impact...

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    #10688
    Quote Originally Posted by latej

    A good reminder of how we live in the past...

    It's good from start, at around 3:45 he explains it is physically impossible to do something at the moment of impact...

    Well, the video is very good and the explanation of every thesis is excellent,

    but I can't agree with the insinuation of the post.

    It may be physically impossible to do Something at the moment of impact, but it doesn't mean that you can't do Anything.
    And you might, or you might not, and it depends on many things.

    But the more important is the fact, that the shot result is a function of the total mechanics of all your actions prior and during the impact, where impact is a long story with many variables.
    Feel and analyses by the self neuro motor system is another story too, no matter do you pay attention to it, or you don't.

    My abstract is that you can't extract such a conclusion by neglecting the other parts of the video and without a proper interpretation of the extraction.

    And with that regard I'm very surprised by the Like of Der_Echte


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    #10689
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    Well, the video is very good and the explanation of every thesis is excellent,

    but I can't agree with the insinuation of the post.

    It may be physically impossible to do Something at the moment of impact, but it doesn't mean that you can't do Anything.
    And you might, or you might not, and it depends on many things.

    But the more important is the fact, that the shot result is a function of the total mechanics of all your actions prior and during the impact, where impact is a long story with many variables.
    Feel and analyses by the self neuro motor system is another story too, no matter do you pay attention to it, or you don't.

    My abstract is that you can't extract such a conclusion by neglecting the other parts of the video and without a proper interpretation of the extraction.

    And with that regard I'm very surprised by the Like of Der_Echte
    I didn't try to extract anything. I just repeated what he said. He said: For this reason, it is not possible to adjust to change hitting at the moment of impact. I didn't repeat it exactly (sorry, if this is the problem), but I meant just that. I hilited that part, because I think it is the essence of what he is trying to illustrate (at least one of his points). Obviously he builds his argument from the start of the video. I don't get why would you think I neglect other parts of the video. But it is out of question, it is not me who extracts a conclusion at all.

    Please explain what part of this video you disagree with.

    What I wrote before, is not about me at all. What I'll add, is my opinion. So, it is simple, ball flies at you, that you can't control at all. How you send the ball back depends on two things at impact only. First, the direction of the bat (relative to ball - basically how tangential is that direction) and the speed of the bat. Nothing more. The impact is so short. It makes you actually free. We try to position ourselves optimally, transfer the energy optimally, so that these two things at impact are optimal. I agree there are so many other things, like how you later sense the impact. That the brain computes the future for you, etc. Anyway, if nothing, I think it is good if new-comers don't get the idea that better players do some extra magical thing at contact. Because that is physically impossible.

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    #10690
    I've recently, after some feedback, changed the focus of my FH slightly. Here's before the change (about a month ago): Here's after (about a week ago): And for another interesting comparison from 2 years ago when I, for the most part, wasn't sure what I was doing. I really hope I won't have to make more drastic changes to my FH and that I'm now on the right track, but every time I think that there's always something more to chase after. It'd be interesting to hear thoughts on differences between the second and the first clip, if I didn't know what I've changed I don't think I'd be able to figure it out myself.

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    Last edited by Richie; 2 Weeks Ago at 08:26 PM.

  11. latej is offline
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    #10691
    Quote Originally Posted by Richie
    I really hope I won't have to make more drastic changes to my FH and that I'm now on the right track, but every time I think that there's always something more to chase after. It'd be interesting to hear thoughts on differences between the second and the first clip, if I didn't know what I've changed I don't think I'd be able to figure it out myself.
    Beautiful progress. I've clear opinion, but not going to spoil the game so soon :-) Well, partially - IMO it is simply the thing that was talked about recently in another thread. I'll just say, that the change let's you be more relaxed, let's the arm fly more like from itself, like a by-product, and let's you play less with (and elevate less) the shoulder.

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    #10692

    I love tennis but I didn`t have learned it professional, Do everyone know any sites for learning online?


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    #10693
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    Beautiful progress. I've clear opinion, but not going to spoil the game so soon :-) Well, partially - IMO it is simply the thing that was talked about recently in another thread. I'll just say, that the change let's you be more relaxed, let's the arm fly more like from itself, like a by-product, and let's you play less with (and elevate less) the shoulder.

    Thank you! Maybe you can let me know your opinion 😀 and I'll let you know what my thoughts have been.
    Here's a movement drill, it's possible I regress a bit here but I still think I'm mostly doing what I'm aiming to do.

    I've also recently been working on my BH vs backspin, Brett Clarke is currently helping me work on this. Still trying to figure out the feeling in the body to drive the arm more. Btw I have zero concern for where my bat ends up/points or whatever. I just let it end where it wants.


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  14. Takkyu_wa_inochi is offline
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    #10694
    looks very good to me, not able to tell anything useful

    thanks for posting

  15. latej is offline
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    #10695
    Quote Originally Posted by Richie
    Thank you! Maybe you can let me know your opinion 😀 and I'll let you know what my thoughts have been.
    Here's a movement drill, it's possible I regress a bit here but I still think I'm mostly doing what I'm aiming to do.
    In the first FH video (from a month ago) you transfer the energy from the ground, leg, hip, torso, arm, and the stroke has spin venom. All is there. But it feels like the arm is moving in synchrony with the torso. As the torso is rotating, so the arm moves with it. It appears you add some forearm muscle driven acceleration, which occasionally results in a bit elevated shoulder at the end.

    In the second FH video the start of the chain is the same, you let the torso (and things before) rotate, but start to move the arm a tiny bit later. The torso acquires some momentum in advance (primary acceleration) and as TTNuri put it, this momentum is transfered to the arm via shoulder joint. Now the arm already has some momentum, and you don't need to add so much more. You can let it go. As a result, you can use less muscle and be more relaxed. You have let the body do the (some) work for the arm.

    In the third FH video, you do this in Falkenberg, which is different level. Although it looks simple, it isn't, imo. I try to do it too, but on robot only, we here can't play with people, and it is uncertain when we can again.

    With BH, I can not say much. What I noticed, is that my shoulder is more strained from BH spin than from FH spin now. So I am now focusing more on being lazy, let the body do the work. I have the best feeling when I also feel the hip rotation there too, and pushing the left foot. I am not focusing on it, but that is when I have the best feeling. You also do this counter-move with free-arm, which Der_Echte mentioned recently too.

    I think children learn more linearly, they start, and linearly are instructed to add more and more speed, and it goes with their growth. For the adult learners I think more non-linear learning is better. Do the movement in various arm-speeds, slow, middle, fastest. This works as error-correction, you can't really move the arm, both relaxed and truly fast, in a wrong way. So if you try, both relaxed and fast, the body does. It may not work the other way, learning only slow, and hoping you can speed up later. You may have learned something what you simply can't speed up.

    I am looking forward your explanation and total refutation of my BS :-)

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    Last edited by latej; 2 Weeks Ago at 12:11 PM. Reason: Typo

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    #10696
    Quote Originally Posted by Richie

    Thank you! Maybe you can let me know your opinion 😀 and I'll let you know what my thoughts have been.
    Here's a movement drill, it's possible I regress a bit here but I still think I'm mostly doing what I'm aiming to do.

    I've also recently been working on my BH vs backspin, Brett Clarke is currently helping me work on this. Still trying to figure out the feeling in the body to drive the arm more. Btw I have zero concern for where my bat ends up/points or whatever. I just let it end where it wants.

    Try tucking the racket between your legs when you bow., the straighten the back. This video already looks better but straightening your back and getting low by tucking the racket between your legs (feeling that way) may get you closer to the movement.

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    Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

    "We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

  17. Lula is offline
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    #10697
    @Richie! I think it is important to try to think about the whole part and not get too focused on just the motion of the stroke. So you can move well and do the stroke, transition from backhand to forehand, when it is irregular and so on. The stroke do not need to be perfect regarding the technique as long as it it functional.

    maybe wrong to talk about the stroke now haha.

    With forehand i think it looks like a bit like you are a bit tense in the arm? maybe becuase it looks like you hold the racket wit the head up alot so never relaxes the wrist? Not sure about this, but it looks like you use the body well, so if you are tense in the arm the arm will not move faster despite you rotating the body good. So you could try to relax the arm a bit more and see how it feels.

    With the backhand opening it is good that you come out alot so you can get the power forward, but are you fast enough if the ball comes shorter? Try letting him push maybe short in fh and long i bh. It is easy to fool yourself that you are best on the ball when you know where it comes. I still think it is good to come out alot since it is faster to work in than back, but maybe do not need to work out so long? or it is okay, as long as it works when the ball can come short as well. One option could be to work on step in perhaps.

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    #10698
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    In the first FH video (from a month ago) you transfer the energy from the ground, leg, hip, torso, arm, and the stroke has spin venom. All is there. But it feels like the arm is moving in synchrony with the torso. As the torso is rotating, so the arm moves with it. It appears you add some forearm muscle driven acceleration, which occasionally results in a bit elevated shoulder at the end.

    In the second FH video the start of the chain is the same, you let the torso (and things before) rotate, but start to move the arm a tiny bit later. The torso acquires some momentum in advance (primary acceleration) and as TTNuri put it, this momentum is transfered to the arm via shoulder joint. Now the arm already has some momentum, and you don't need to add so much more. You can let it go. As a result, you can use less muscle and be more relaxed. You have let the body do the (some) work for the arm.

    In the third FH video, you do this in Falkenberg, which is different level. Although it looks simple, it isn't, imo. I try to do it too, but on robot only, we here can't play with people, and it is uncertain when we can again.

    With BH, I can not say much. What I noticed, is that my shoulder is more strained from BH spin than from FH spin now. So I am now focusing more on being lazy, let the body do the work. I have the best feeling when I also feel the hip rotation there too, and pushing the left foot. I am not focusing on it, but that is when I have the best feeling. You also do this counter-move with free-arm, which Der_Echte mentioned recently too.

    I think children learn more linearly, they start, and linearly are instructed to add more and more speed, and it goes with their growth. For the adult learners I think more non-linear learning is better. Do the movement in various arm-speeds, slow, middle, fastest. This works as error-correction, you can't really move the arm, both relaxed and truly fast, in a wrong way. So if you try, both relaxed and fast, the body does. It may not work the other way, learning only slow, and hoping you can speed up later. You may have learned something what you simply can't speed up.

    I am looking forward your explanation and total refutation of my BS :-)
    I really appreciate your thoughts! The weird thing is that I find it tricky to actually remember what has gone on before, so I can't be 100% confident even in my own experience and memory of it lol.

    In the 2 year old clip I was for sure consciously using my arm during the forward swing as I thought that would add extra power, but I also knew I should be doing something with my body/hips. So in the oldest clips there were two main problems.
    One was that I was rotating my hips back and forward. The second was the conscious use of the arm. This is why it looks so tense. I've been told a lot since I started playing table tennis to "relax". The problem is that looking tense is a symptom of a problem and no amount of being told to relax fixes that (at least for me, maybe others are smarter than me and intuitively know what to do, then being told to relax might work). The problem was I didn't know what to do in what order and many players here often say to "use" the forearm etc. So in that clip and during that time I just thought that I needed to "use" the forearm which instead lead to overusing the whole arm.

    In the month old clip - I'm letting the arm do what it wants and not to my conscious experience tensing the arm or the shoulder, but it's also possible I'm misremembering and that you're right that I'm slipping in some arm and shoulder. One of the problems from the two year old clip has been solved to some extent. but I'm still left with the second main problem. I'm consciously rotating my hips back and forward as far as possible (and I'm doing this more than the 2 year old clip) and I think this is why it looks like my shoulder is more elevated as my body and hips are rotated a bit more compared to the second video. I only noticed the shoulder thing when you pointed it out.

    In the latest videos I've tried to stop rotating my hips consciously and instead been trying to do what should've been obvious - and really I should've known better, yet I haven't been doing it. Maybe I've done it before and then changed technique for some reason. In the latest FH vs block video I'm trying to push more with my left leg to let my hips rotate and then the rest of the body follows along, it feels a bit like I'm loading my left leg to jump. Maybe in the first vid I'm pushing a bit with my left leg, but my main focus there was to just rotate my hips back and forward. In the latest fh vs block I'm really focusing on pushing with my left leg, making the appropriate backswing and letting the rest happen.

    I think to improve this more I need to practice every variation of leg push and backswing, when there's little time - small backswing and a little push and when there's more time big backswing and hard push from the leg and glute. But all of that is subconscious and I will just let my body intuit that during practice. I also think I can let my arm fly a little bit more and "relax", like Lula says I could let the wrist snap into the ball more perhaps. The leg push also needs to become more automatic, in the latest video especially there was no time to think about it, so hopefully I'm on the right track to getting it ingrained. There's always something to work on and I accept that it'll never be perfect, but the process is enjoyable regardless



    Last edited by Richie; 2 Weeks Ago at 03:08 PM.

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    #10699
    Quote Originally Posted by Lula
    @Richie! I think it is important to try to think about the whole part and not get too focused on just the motion of the stroke. So you can move well and do the stroke, transition from backhand to forehand, when it is irregular and so on. The stroke do not need to be perfect regarding the technique as long as it it functional.

    maybe wrong to talk about the stroke now haha.

    With forehand i think it looks like a bit like you are a bit tense in the arm? maybe becuase it looks like you hold the racket wit the head up alot so never relaxes the wrist? Not sure about this, but it looks like you use the body well, so if you are tense in the arm the arm will not move faster despite you rotating the body good. So you could try to relax the arm a bit more and see how it feels.

    With the backhand opening it is good that you come out alot so you can get the power forward, but are you fast enough if the ball comes shorter? Try letting him push maybe short in fh and long i bh. It is easy to fool yourself that you are best on the ball when you know where it comes. I still think it is good to come out alot since it is faster to work in than back, but maybe do not need to work out so long? or it is okay, as long as it works when the ball can come short as well. One option could be to work on step in perhaps.

    @NL thank you, this is very helpful advice, recently I was trying to do the backswing closer to my body and I will try to do it even more like you say. I think before I've been doing the backswing too far away and then it's difficulty to get the feeling that the body is helping with the BH stroke.
    It's funny how I can think that I'm doing something, then I look at the video and it simply isn't the case. In my mind I'm bowing very low, but there is obviously some way to go.

    @Lula thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you and I'm trying to think of the stroke as a whole and for it to be as flexible as possible. The only thing I've really been focused on is the start of the stroke and the backswing, the rest doesn't seem to be under conscious control.
    I wish I had a coach that could feed me multiball, if that were the case I wouldn't even be serving backspin and letting my training partner push to my BH. I'm just trying to practice the BH vs backspin in isolation as I try to find the feeling on how to use the body better. When I can do that I'll practice pushing short and then letting him push long to my BH. The only difference then as I see it is that I need to jump back fast and possibly shorten the backswing and how much I use my body.

    Last edited by Richie; 2 Weeks Ago at 02:49 PM.

  20. Lula is offline
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    #10700
    You guys can feed to eachother? or do semi-balls! which is basically that he serve long with backspin and then block then starts again with many balls. Or just do the exercise you did but just pick up the ball after the opening. But i still think it is good to not just practice to much on the stroke. If you can not implement it in game it really do not matter if you have Kreanga backhand. of course you could start with just practice the opening in the beginning but still good that you can make it functionally good in a game situation. Keep up the good work!

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