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says toooooo much choice!!
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Does anyone have any pointers when it comes to setting the pace yourself? I've spent most of the summer playing against players who are 500+ (Swedish) ranking points better than me so I've become quite comfortable at countering or chopping whatever they throw at me. What really destroys me is when they start to play extremely slow and I have to set the pace (usually quite close to the table). I overshoot a lot.

Any drills that would improve this? The typical error I make is trying to loop a quite low and slow ball (by overshooting).

Hi, the thing with better players is that they can be more comfortable playing at a variety of different paces, and remembering Timo Boll talking about variety (when he did a review with Dan, mainly on serves) but it also applies to general play, is a variety of pace , spin , placement etc doesn’t let your opponent ‘settle’ and be ‘comfortable’ it makes them think all the time.

You said you are comfortable playing whatever they throw at you, at a faster pace, they know this and then switch things, looking to bring you out of your comfort zone!!!

ask yourself do I have to set the pace? Or can I play a well positioned controlled shot that will enable a better chance of attacking the next ball.
Ask yourself ‘What is setting the pace??’
For these better players, it’s reducing the speed of play not necessarily playing faster or harder shots.
Controlling the rally

I would think that you are a far better player than myself so I’m just throwing some thoughts and options out there!! I’m not saying do this or that, or this will work. The other guys will advise on shot type, more spin less pace etc

I also think you already know the answer !!!!! Just possibly don’t know it yet!!!

At the start of the summer when you started playing against the ‘better’ players, did you feel comfortable playing at their faster pace?? Now you have ‘grown’ into their pace of play and feel comfortable!!!!!

Ask these players to do some drills with you, focusing on slower play.

You already analysed where you think your weak point is, so focus on that, get them to play that slow low ball to the forehand. Ask them how it’s best to play against that ball.

Also play that slow low ball to them, and see how they deal with it!! And you’ll have an answer!! (Or two!!!) as individuals will have their own way of dealing with that type of incoming ball.

Watch them play each other and see if that slow ball is played and what they do.

The answer is at the other end of the table, if they are decent guys they’ll help you out!!!!:):)
 
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Martin, this is not super high quality, but it is better than missing for now.

LOOSEN wrist, and SLOW DOWN your power, like go 50% on everything... lift the ball a little bit and just land it, hopefully somewhere they wont cream it, like middle. I think the key for your situation is wrist grip pressure... then maybe amount of power next.

You’re probably spot on. Going 50% would probably land a lot of those balls but I guess that I’m thinking that they will destroy me unless I go really hard. The net effect is that I miss a lot so going slower will at least give me a fighting chance (though extremely slim).
 
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My blade is very stiff (on the forehand side - great for looping from distance).

But what about actual drills how do you practice this stuff? It right not only comes at me during matches.

Do you get the balls after loops or pushes? If after pushes, you can get someone to push to you with pips or anti and keep the ball low and see how to loop that. Your return should probably aim to keep the ball extremely low as well as much as you need arc.
 
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says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
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One drill you can do with partner is for him to have bucket of balls on table in a container or in a tray next to table.

Partner hits one ball out of hand to you. You are positioned off the table wherever you are, you attack the ball the way you do normally.

Partner hits next ball out of hand slower with zero spin or light under (the ball you said troubles you) to a slightly randon location in front of you and decently low to cause you to move some to the ball.

You LOOSEN the wrist and hand... go 50% on everything (50% lift, 50% power, loose grip) and try to get the ball landing near endline with heavy spin.

Alternative (Korean Div 1 players do this ALLTHE TIME... well at least often) is to allow ball to come below the table a bit (so opponent does not see impact so well) you do a 15% power shot that lifts the ball just over the net with some topsin... does not have to be a lot. Try to keep the ball low with SOME topspin.

This ball will make a pronounced kick on the bounce, even with light topspin. If your shot is low over net and generally low, this will be a VERY tricky ball for opponent to time. Opponent will want to cream this ball, but the timing is not as easy as it looks. Opponent makes some consecutive errors... then when he sees this kind of ball, plays a safe passive shot... which you are ready for... which now YOU attack strongly.

Div 1 players choose to do this shot when the opponent gives them a slow ball not too far off the table that the Div 1 player just will not get to in time to make a strong attack... so Div 1 player gets behind the ball, lets it drop, and does a gentle topspin shot very low over the net... impact is below table and difficult for opponent to see... ball goes low over net, lands, and kicks out more than expected... very difficult to time this ball for strong attack.

Oppenent often attacks and sprays it in net or out. Later, they lay off the ball and just bump it back... this ball omes back long and or a little high... real easy for Div 1 player to go back on attack.

Div 1 players use this tactic over and over to get back in the point when an opponent blocks a ball too short for them to step up and finish. it is a way they reset the point in their favor.

It is VERY worth trying this shot out.

This shot sequence is very easy to have someone feed you if they have a container of balls handy.
 
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If governments worldwide will allow free commerce and travel, etc... at some point in the future, I will be buying my wife a V90 AWD T6 and pick it up from Gotenborg... this time may swing by Malmo before hanging out in Copenhagen.

I would visit you and show you this one personally. Such an easy to execute shot, You only need to recognize the weak ball is coming back too short (because on attack you were kinda well off the table).. be ready with a loose hand and do a gentle topspin shot low over net bouncing short... So easy to train and learn this shot. Very effective - wins points or gets you back in the point attacking.
 
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Do you get the balls after loops or pushes? If after pushes, you can get someone to push to you with pips or anti and keep the ball low and see how to loop that. Your return should probably aim to keep the ball extremely low as well as much as you need arc.

They usually originate from me pushing with the LP trying to provoke them to attack.
 
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Then do they loop or push back?

Either. The issue seem to be related to me being close to the table and having to set the pace. I guess that shitty footwork and balance plays a role here as well. My preferred position is quite far away from the table where I can either chop or loop on both sides.

I don’t have that much of an issue if they push my heavy backspin chop short as I’m quite comfortable at hitting through the backspin with the pips.

I’ll see if I’m able to capture it on video during tomorrow practice session.
 
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mart1nandersson said:
You’re probably spot on. Going 50% would probably land a lot of those balls but I guess that I’m thinking that they will destroy me unless I go really hard. The net effect is that I miss a lot so going slower will at least give me a fighting chance (though extremely slim).

Hmmm. Of course, priority number one is to land the ball on table without pissing away the point directly, then number two is to do it in a manner that you do not get creamed right away. If the quality of your topspin is there, it will not be point over. It may take some time to develop the confidence, landing percentages, and quality, but look at it this way...

... you were ALREADY a player of a certain standard... you are NOT incapable of developing shots or exising existing shots to enhance your chances in a point. You can do this kind of thing, you have enough in you already.

So... keeping it real during a point, I want to make sure I am getting it right...

- You do an LP shot, usually some degree of chop...

- Opponent bumps ball back low (because opponent is quality and knows you hate this) with zero or light underspin low and maybe 10-15 cm long to your middle or a little into your FH zone... or even into your FH zone CHALLENGING you to attack.

- Until now, you were attacking hte ball, and hitting it out a lot... or I suspect you pushed it back with LP... and I suspect the better players were really ready for this, did their winning shot, and were thinking THANK YOU as you went to pick up the ball (I think.. at least a better offensive player would reset often enough like that instead of trying to rip through every chop ball)

... SO... let's look at the basic options.

- Medium to heavy spin slower ball topspin
- Push it back again with LP or inverted depending on where ball is
- Allow ball to drop below table and do a very low over net, short bouncing ball that kicks unpredicably
- Attack ball strongly with FH
- LOB
- SNAKE !!

*** Slower topspin ball response... what will make quality is the amount of spin, how well you can place it in relation to opponent body, how low you can keep it, how unpredictable you can make it (spin variation and heavy spin potential), and how short or deep you can make it land.

Any of your heavy topspin landing very short close to net and very deep near endline are SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult balls for someone your level to attack with high percentage and quality. Ditto for a ball placed in their pocket, Ditto for extreme heavy spin (if it isn't a high bouncer) If your opponents can cream good quality responces, then they are damn near elite players and you must be elite chopper if you are similar standard.

Once you gt the timing and basic FH tospin respnce down to the point of it being instinctive, by then you would have developed very good view of the ball and timing of the impact zone (and be in position on time) Once you got those down, you can develop one of the later options - strong FH attack. It is just a matter of adjusting your impact to make more spin with your pace. You are going for the "Grab and Throw" feel that old school Korean coaches champion. You CAN make powerful fast topspin returns from that ball, it is just that the impact is different.

-*** Push it right back... you know what works for you or not there... I do not believe there would be anything I could say here that you do not already know as a different way to do this shot - you are a defender and do this for a living

*** Allow ball to drop below table and do a very low tospin landing very shallow that KICKS sudenly on bounce... this is a very unpredictable ball. All you would have to do is crough down some more after a tiny movement to position... let ball drop 10-20 cm below top of table (to a point where opponent cannot see impact) (let it drop some more if you are 1m off table)(Key is to not let opponent see your impact) and do a slower shot with light to medium topspin very low bounce it reasonably close to net or very deep... this ball is so damn difficult to time right... opponent will WANT to go apeshyt on this ball, and often, will fail. They will keep trying thinking they just had bad luck... but eventually, they back of and bump it back... TIME for you to go on the offensive and put them to bed

*** Attack ball strongly with FH (right now you hit too many of these out for it to be of any use to you in points in a match) You will develop the position and timing to impact by developing the slower, heavier topspin repsonce... develop that first and work on this one. I PROMISE YOU, it will get a LOT easier for you to train this ball after you get good at the slower response... so LATER, this will become a good response

*** LOB... you name is not James Therriault... but what the heck, it is fun to do sometimes and you never know when you face a very short player and the background is not dark and the lighting in the venue is full of glare... that may be a good option in those conditions

*** SNAKE... your name is not Adam Barbrow... but what the heck, it is a fun shot and the things applying to lobs apply here... even more
 
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I noticed in your last post that you MAY not exactly be getting to the ball on time on balance to make a strong attack... that would take away the reliability of many of the options I discussed.

That sounds pretty bad... and not being able to attack strongly is a huge disadvantage... but tactically, this isn't the end of the world for a quality option.

Still, allowing the ball to drop below out of sight of opponent GIVES YOU MORE TIME... plus, since this isn't a strong shot with a LOT of weight transfer requiring optimal position and balance...

...you can execute that slow light to medium topspin shot low over the net landing shallow or dep with just a step to the ball and dip wiast down... you have enough time to do it... it is an easy shot to do even not in good position... it gives you TIME TO RECOVER... so EVEN if opponent strongly attacks, you are ready as a defender... but dude will miss a lot more of them than he thinks he will.

This light to medium topspin shot low over the net can be an error inducing shot even more than a chop !!!
 
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You need to train to attack yourself. Then they are forced to play harder and more difficult. When they are not Afraid they can just play more safe and softer. Defenders often want power atainst Them so i think alot of your opponents will keep on playing soft.
 
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So I have been trying to improve my footwork - this is the max I can go at and I don't think I will be doing this particular drill at this intensity again - my right knee can't take it for sure. I get faster as the drill goes on.

Comments are welcome:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSbJ0PkgSrs
 
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So I have been trying to improve my footwork - this is the max I can go at and I don't think I will be doing this particular drill at this intensity again - my right knee can't take it for sure. I get faster as the drill goes on.

Comments are welcome:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSbJ0PkgSrs

Hi NL

i think its quite impressive what you're doing. A lot of people without any knee pain will never achieve this kind of level. Actually it doesn't feel like your feeling much pain watching this video, you're moving pretty well, and we can see how strong your body is, legs and core, the ball is always hit with power and there is always good pace.

there are a few things i'd like to comment that may give you food for thought:

- what strikes me most in your drill videos is the sound of the ball. it certainly sounds like its hit hard, but the sound seems different from my own experience. Maybe its just the tables ? or the recording ? or you're just hitting hard, but it suggests to me you may want from here a bit to favour spin a bit more compared to just power if you want to tune your shot. not saying there is no spin, there definitely is, but thats my 2c impression.

- it feels like there is a slightly desync between your legs and your hips when you execute FH, especially pivot. i have the impression you should turn your hip a bit earlier, together with your legs. You don't make really mistakes because of that, but it feels a bit awkward to me.

- BH: when you're not caught up late, I think your timing is perfect with your technique, you're hitting the ball with power because you have quite a big swing, and despite that you're not losing much in precision. Personally i'm taught to play BH (and FH as well) with a short swing, much more compact than you. I think there are merits to this to reduce the risk of wrong timing, and to accelerate more, creating more spin when needed and more versatile shots.
 
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So I have been trying to improve my footwork - this is the max I can go at and I don't think I will be doing this particular drill at this intensity again - my right knee can't take it for sure. I get faster as the drill goes on.

Comments are welcome:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSbJ0PkgSrs

Hi NL... From this video, it shows that you have very strong legs and arms. I am curious...after this drill, do you feel tired on your arm?
Your forehand is using too much arm swing and almost no hip rotation. To me, this is a wrong way to strike a forehand unless you are super strong and you look super strong :). It makes me wonder how powerful your shot will be if you use hip rotation, along with your swing arm. This will make your shots a lot more consistent and also lethal :)
 
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Hi NL... From this video, it shows that you have very strong legs and arms. I am curious...after this drill, do you feel tired on your arm?
Your forehand is using too much arm swing and almost no hip rotation. To me, this is a wrong way to strike a forehand unless you are super strong and you look super strong :). It makes me wonder how powerful your shot will be if you use hip rotation, along with your swing arm. This will make your shots a lot more consistent and also lethal :)

My arm actually feels quite fine these days compared to prior times - it has been doing this for too long so it is happy that there is actually a little lower body work to support it where there used to be none whatsoever ;).
 
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My arm actually feels quite fine these days compared to prior times - it has been doing this for too long so it is happy that there is actually a little lower body work to support it where there used to be none whatsoever ;).

Next time shows us a loop with hip rotation , together with your arm swing. I would be curious how scarily fast your drive will be :)
 
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Hi NL

i think its quite impressive what you're doing. A lot of people without any knee pain will never achieve this kind of level. Actually it doesn't feel like your feeling much pain watching this video, you're moving pretty well, and we can see how strong your body is, legs and core, the ball is always hit with power and there is always good pace.

there are a few things i'd like to comment that may give you food for thought:

- what strikes me most in your drill videos is the sound of the ball. it certainly sounds like its hit hard, but the sound seems different from my own experience. Maybe its just the tables ? or the recording ? or you're just hitting hard, but it suggests to me you may want from here a bit to favour spin a bit more compared to just power if you want to tune your shot. not saying there is no spin, there definitely is, but thats my 2c impression.

- it feels like there is a slightly desync between your legs and your hips when you execute FH, especially pivot. i have the impression you should turn your hip a bit earlier, together with your legs. You don't make really mistakes because of that, but it feels a bit awkward to me.

- BH: when you're not caught up late, I think your timing is perfect with your technique, you're hitting the ball with power because you have quite a big swing, and despite that you're not losing much in precision. Personally i'm taught to play BH (and FH as well) with a short swing, much more compact than you. I think there are merits to this to reduce the risk of wrong timing, and to accelerate more, creating more spin when needed and more versatile shots.


The desync you see is probably the biggest evidence of the knee pain, it is hard to get into the kind of depth with the knees that I would like to to hit the shot I want to hit, but I know what I get is better than getting nothing whatsoever, because there is a change in ability to hit some shots that I couldn't before with the leg positioning even with the desync.

The spin thing, well, maybe I should work on it, but I use hard rubber though. Hard to spin the ball without making solid contact when the sponge is hard. But I could probably do better for sure.

My backhand is relatively small but it uses a lot of forearm so that makes it look larger than it is, and I also stand a bit straight so the distance is more upward than forward. But I don't know how to trap topspin with a smaller stroke so until I get comfortable with trapping topspin, it will be hard to make it smaller.

But it is definitely all work in progress - maybe if I play long enough, more things will change.
 
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So I have been trying to improve my footwork - this is the max I can go at and I don't think I will be doing this particular drill at this intensity again - my right knee can't take it for sure. I get faster as the drill goes on.

Comments are welcome:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSbJ0PkgSrs

Are you able to sustain a wider stance? At a brief glance it looks like you are somewhat light on your feet when executing the stroke, and heavier on your feet during the transition/set-up phase, but I'm sure this could be the result of bad knees. I could be wrong too.

This could make it a little easier to engage your lower body...or not. Check out this video from Rade Markovic.

 
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