Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

nextlevel said:

so i managed to put out more stuff today for jirrex, boogar, osph and pingpongholic. Now schemesc and shuki are left. I should be able to get something out soon, will just enter some dialogue so i know what they want - shuki i am already fairly sure what i will send, schemesc i will try to discuss with. But everything is easier when you are in the us.

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thanks santaj! =)

Archosaurus said:

Then I self-hit looped....with very light spin.

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Explain. Loop? Doesn't that mean a lot of topspin? How do you loop with very light spin unless you mean a faux-loop or light spin ball designed to trick the opponent into thinking it has heavy spin.

But I want to see footage of you looping. That would be good to see your progress.

My memory may be wrong but I seem to remember that your last video the shots were still direct contact. They were decent drives. But I don't remember the contact or spin of a loop. My old man memory could be wrong. But....

By the way, Mark Croitoroo showed me how to use a shoe as a tripod for a smartphone camera. It works amazingly well.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

UpSideDownCarl said:

Explain. Loop? Doesn't that mean a lot of topspin? How do you loop with very light spin unless you mean a faux-loop or light spin ball designed to trick the opponent into thinking it has heavy spin.

But I want to see footage of you looping. That would be good to see your progress.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

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I don't really know what to call it, apart from "loop".
The kind of shots I give to people when I train with them aren't really loops: there's not much of a strong grabbing feeling or high racket head speed. But there's enough spin to make it a deadly shot against much lower level players, who otherwise don't have problems in receiving flat strokes.

I guess "topspin" would be more accurate. "Light topspin".

I just don't want to make anyone think I'm talking about drives or flat hits: it's not that at all.


For whatever reason, people haven't been staying to play too much lately and it's mostly been 1 on 1, but if the guys stay late again, I'll put one of them to film. I haven't seen my current form myself, so I'm curious as well.

Hi guys.

A few days ago, I had to change my backhand stroke again to an older version of what I used to do. Again, I hope that this will be the last time. The swing is much more solid and it is much easier to contact and hit the ball hard. Backhand looping became a lot more consistent. It also makes backhand flipping a lot easier. I have no idea what made me change from that in the first place.

Recently, I found out why I hate watching myself play so much. It turns out that stick my butt out too much and it is hideous.
I have to change my stance and relearn how to forehand loop. I guess my stance has been preventing me from turning my body when looping.

songdavid98 said:

Hi guys.

A few days ago, I had to change my backhand stroke again to an older version of what I used to do. Again, I hope that this will be the last time. The swing is much more solid and it is much easier to contact and hit the ball hard. Backhand looping became a lot more consistent. It also makes backhand flipping a lot easier. I have no idea what made me change from that in the first place.

Recently, I found out why I hate watching myself play so much. It turns out that stick my butt out too much and it is hideous.
I have to change my stance and relearn how to forehand loop. I guess my stance has been preventing me from turning my body when looping.

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If I had to guess from all the backhands I have had to fix with similar issues, you wanted more spin. I tell people that it is a big mistake to think spin with the backhand from the first movement. Think contact first and then over time, you will learn to add spin with subtle adjustments in swing trajectory at contact by turning your wrist/upper faster.

Archosaurus said:

I don't really know what to call it, apart from "loop".
The kind of shots I give to people when I train with them aren't really loops: there's not much of a strong grabbing feeling or high racket head speed. But there's enough spin to make it a deadly shot against much lower level players, who otherwise don't have problems in receiving flat strokes.

I guess "topspin" would be more accurate. "Light topspin".

I just don't want to make anyone think I'm talking about drives or flat hits: it's not that at all.


For whatever reason, people haven't been staying to play too much lately and it's mostly been 1 on 1, but if the guys stay late again, I'll put one of them to film. I haven't seen my current form myself, so I'm curious as well.

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From my understanding, a drive is a topspin shot with "plow through". When you see the pros warming up before a match, they are driving the ball. A proper loop has so much topspin that if you attempt to drive it, the ball will most definitely go over the end of the table.

Jabugo said:

From my understanding, a drive is a topspin shot with "plow through". When you see the pros warming up before a match, they are driving the ball. A proper loop has so much topspin that if you attempt to drive it, the ball will most definitely go over the end of the table.

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Then we're talking about the same thing. Just not as much spin.

I'm actually really curious to know how my spin level stacks up against experienced players. I know for a fact it's not very high because I can feel that the touch is not exactly there to really grab the ball, but maybe there's an okay amount of spin. I've never played anyone who can *really* spin up the ball, so I don't know how it compares.

A rotations per second meter would be nice.

Decided to get some new sheets of Tenergy. Black and Red, 2.1. Weighed them before gluing, the black uncut was 65.04grams and the red was 69.78grams. Kind of a large difference. nearly 5 grams.

food for thought.

What do you prefer to do? Attack someone where you think they're weaker, or consistently mix up where you're attacking to keep the opponent off balance?

Jabugo said:

From my understanding, a drive is a topspin shot with "plow through". When you see the pros warming up before a match, they are driving the ball. A proper loop has so much topspin that if you attempt to drive it, the ball will most definitely go over the end of the table.

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Archosaurus said:

Then we're talking about the same thing. Just not as much spin.

I'm actually really curious to know how my spin level stacks up against experienced players. I know for a fact it's not very high because I can feel that the touch is not exactly there to really grab the ball, but maybe there's an okay amount of spin. I've never played anyone who can *really* spin up the ball, so I don't know how it compares.

A rotations per second meter would be nice.

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I am going to chalk this up to a language barrier. But a shot with massive topspin is not the same as a shot with a little spin.

And the last time I saw footage of you, I don't remember you having a loop. You did not have the precision for the contact. You were making flatter contact than you'd need to for a loop.

It would be nice to see footage that shows your contact has improved and that you are able to brush and spin the ball better.



Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Shuki said:

What do you prefer to do? Attack someone where you think they're weaker, or consistently mix up where you're attacking to keep the opponent off balance?

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Porque no los dos? Why not do both? I do both.

Your opponent will catch on if you keep attacking the same spot, so mixed it up. But you still want to win points, so you will still want to attack their weak spot the majority of the time.

@UpSideDownCarl

Yeah, I guess.

That's true, about my contact. I didn't really consider myself to be looping in the latest video I showed, either.

However something has changed in the past month or so. What used to be my absolute max amount of spin for a full body shot is now my normal amount of spin with basically just my forearm and a bit of body turn, and I can go even further if I put legs and torso twist into it. I also get more power with way less effort than before, because I've been working on coordinating the torso twist with my arm. As part of my warmup, I do a hundred or so reps of just twisting the torso and trying to remember the feeling.

It's not a huge increase in spin, but I think I'm a bit closer to having a real loop now. In half a year I should have something going on.

We will see from the video.

@Shuki

I try to always mix it up against everyone I play, but I think every time I've played an opponent who gives me a hard time and is at or above my level, I've had to find a weakness and attack it primarily.

Shuki said:

What do you prefer to do? Attack someone where you think they're weaker, or consistently mix up where you're attacking to keep the opponent off balance?

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The correct answer (IMO) is that there are multiple ways to expose a weakness and you should keep that in mind when selecting how to play against an opponent with an issue. At the lower levels, it is simply a matter of putting the ball and expecting a weak shot. At the higher levels, you have to sequence things to expose the weakness. Just putting the ball there is no longer good enough as people have developed defense mechanisms against basic stuff so you may have to play a 3-or-more shot-pattern to expose the weakness fully.

EDIT: Then at the higher levels, a better player may make an adjustment to take away what you just used. But if their weakness is a real weakness, they have given you something else related to that weakness. But that's when you have to have the eye to notice what the adjustment is and make your own adjustment to keep the weakness available (i.e. take advantage of what they have just given you).

I will use the example of the extreme backhand player who returns every ball with his backhand (I could be an example). Should you play every ball to his forehand? Not necessarily. You may want to serve to his forehand and see what kinds of balls he returns poorly and then often go back to the backhand or the forehand, depending on what is open after you force the initial movement. The player may then move closer to his forehand to use the backhand more aggressively on receive. Then you can take advantage with wide serves to the backhand. But if you keep placing every ball to his forehand, he might just start returning them better and better (or he may not - depends on the player).

Archosaurus said:

Then we're talking about the same thing. Just not as much spin.

I'm actually really curious to know how my spin level stacks up against experienced players. I know for a fact it's not very high because I can feel that the touch is not exactly there to really grab the ball, but maybe there's an okay amount of spin. I've never played anyone who can *really* spin up the ball, so I don't know how it compares.

A rotations per second meter would be nice.

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It was quite shocking to me actually when I first encountered a real looper. I was a solid classic drive player at the time, and everyone I played up to that point was the same type. And we all thought we had a good understanding of topspin. The encounter with the looper happened during a league match that I entered, and a score ladder was still being established so I had no idea how outclassed I was. I was dumb-founded really. All my topspin drives were flying away like home runs. It was only when I blocked with an extreme blade angle that I was able to keep anything looped at me on the table.

Archosaurus said:

I didn't really consider myself to be looping in the latest video I showed, either.

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You didn't then or you don't now? I seem to remember you talking about fade loops, corkscrew loops, sidespin loops.....part of why I think it stood out that the contact was direct, flat impact with no tangential element.

But I am looking forward to seeing your improvements.

@Jabugo

How did you deal with reading the ball if the topspin was so high and you'd never seen it before?

@UpSideDownCarl

I didn't really consider it looping then, but I don't consider it looping now either, definitely.

The shots in the latest video I've shown are completely flat?

EDIT: So you don't get the wrong idea, I'm not denying they are more flat than a brush contact. You can even hear it from the sound: there's not that brushing sound, but a more loud wood sound. I noticed the difference only lately.

However, completely flat? Maybe 50%.

Today I played against my lefty friend again. This is the 5th encounter with him since my visit to HK during this break.
Our last 4 encounters:
1st: I won 3-2
2nd: He won 3-1
3rd: He won 3-1
4th: I won 3-2

An interesting fact: The both times that I have won 3-2, I was wearing the blue Butterfly shirt; while both of the times that I have lost 3-1, I was wearing my new Stiga set.

So anyway, I wanted to break this trend. So today, I wore the Stiga set.

I have also been exercising a little bit in the gym as I joined a 'gym class' that teach us how to correctly use gym equipments. I attend it with the intention to use the gym, as gym membership in private centres in HK are very expensive, whereas this course provided by the government is really cheap. The class runs twice a week, on Monday and Friday. Yesterday, I went to the class, and did a good workout, worked on most of the muscles of my body, especially my legs as they have 3 machines for it and I used them all (for the first time). I didn't work out excessively, as I know I need to use them the day afterwards, so it was more like a warm up for today.

Today, as I got to the arena, I was feeling good. My legs' muscles seem to be working well, so it was a good start for me.
I tried to refine my strategy towards my friend. Thought about where I want to hit the balls, and I tried to remind myself to stay focus in the game, as I often get frustrated by my own mistakes. I also tried to play a simpler game while varying my serves to find what works. Given my 2 previous big defeats to him, despite winning the last match 12-10, I did not expect to do too well today, but just to try my best.

As it is already our 5th encounter during this visit to HK, (I have been playing against him 3 times per year for the last 2 years also every time I go back), there isn't really anymore surprise serves that will magically win us points, as we are all quite used to each other's serves that there isn't really a serve that will kill us 100%. So it really forced us to work on our strategy against each other. We also pretty much only play against each other every week, as he works and I am on placement in the weekdays.

Anyway, I have realised that not many people like to watch long videos when most of it is not actual gameplay but ball bouncing before serves, so I have done the work to cut down a 20 min video to a 7min video, with an updating score every 6 points. So this should be better for everyone. I would like some feedback on what is done well, and what I should improve on.


Thanks guys.





Spoiler*
He uses the medium pimples sometimes during the match, as he twiddles. You may be able to see it sometimes if you watch carefully.

Won both my matches 3:0 in the league and finally got the #2 spot rating wise in our club

Was very nervous the first game which made it hard for me to make good returns but luckily I warmed up quickly enough to overpower my opponents. I had a terrible backhand on wednesdays training and didn't know where it came from but then I realized it was mainly because I didn't bend my knees enough and took the balls too high.

Archosaurus said:

I didn't really consider it looping then, but I don't consider it looping now either, definitely.

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Okay. Cool. So you were not looping yesterday. And you were not looping with light topspin. You just use words in a funny way to talk about your loop that you don't consider a loop. Good to clarify the meaning of the words.

"I was feeding him light topspin."

UpSideDownCarl said:

Okay. Cool. So you were not looping yesterday. And you were not looping with light topspin. You just use words in a funny way to talk about your loop that you don't consider a loop. Good to clarify the meaning of the words.

"I was feeding him light topspin."

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Huh?

In the video, a few months ago, I was not exactly looping. I didn't say anything about yesterday when I claimed I wasn't looping.

I said I was looping to my partner yesterday, but I corrected myself, because it can't be a loop if there's not high spin. The contact is still a fine, brushing contact, so there's some spin. Hence, light topspin.

I'd like to think that when I actually spin the ball, and I feel it grab onto the rubber, it's a loop. But by the standards here, it might not be a lot of spin.

You know, this is a stupid problem. At what point does a flat hit turn into a loop? When it can be blocked off the table with a closed angle? After the shot reaches a specific arc with a specific speed? After some amount of acceleration after hitting the table? If the contact is thin enough? At some amount of racket head speed?

I'd just prefer to show video and then people can give their opinion on what it is, so we're on the same page.