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    1. Top | #9861
      JeffM is offline
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      An update on my shakehand journey.
      Today I trained with my formal coach.
      He seemed to be pleasantly surprised by my shakehand level, given it is our first lesson since the switch.
      We trained mostly forehand.
      The best thing is, no finger pain after the session!

      Here is a short highlight of our session.
      As always, feedback / comment welcome.

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    3. Top | #9862
      Takkyu_wa_inochi is offline
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      with mutiball
      the drill I was doing today was BH - middle - BH -FH , and BH many (or little) times and then suddenly FH, both at high speed
      Its fun, it gave me a glimpse of whats its like to play like a pro...
      the exercise is not forgiving, its absolutely not a good idea to put the right foot behind the right foot. You'd end up playing and going back at the same time. One must achieve very good stability first on BH side, using the abs, then quick to react on FH side.

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    5. Top | #9863
      burhanayan is offline
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      Hey guys,


      Yesterday I played against a guy who has 100 TTR more than me. He had kinda Seamiller grip.


      I tried different placement, speed as much as possible during serves on first set. The more sets we played, the more he got used to my game. Even though I lead 2-0, I lost 3-2.


      My deduction is that I should use Tomahawk serve too instead of using all match pendulum serve.


      I am wondering what you guys think;
      - How I can develop my game?
      - What are really bad habits that I can directly start to work on them?


      I am the guy with blue T-Shirt. Any criticism and suggestion are welcome.


      Thanks.


    6. Top | #9864
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Hi BH...

      As with any win or loss, look at the vid and determine:

      Where you directly won or lost points

      Where you directly loss points

      What contributed to that

      Where you pissed away points like going to the Pisserei at Oktoberfest

      This should give you enough data to work with.

      Short story is you played like you were tight and BRAIN DEAD for games 3-5. You deserved your loss for easy reasons.

      Good news is that you should never lose to this player again if you are prepared mentally.

      Time and time again, your opponent could not successfully attack or push heavy underspin to his bh... or even his FH. When you SLOW heavy topspin to his BH, he lost nearly every point.

      When you give high no spin or half depth balls not heavy underspin to his BH, he killed you. Ditto for light underspin to his FH.

      You so willingly gave him 2 points for free on serve by missing the serve... opponent texts back... thanks for donation via paypal. Logout optional.

      When you step around FH fast loop right at him, he always blocked for a winner.

      Here is where you lost the match... you kept feeding his strengths and playing low percentage.

      You pushed light to allow him to attack, you attacked fast at him, you missed some, he blocked the rest, you missed serves (20% of the game right there) You kept serving long not heavy underspin... he attacked those and pressured you.

      What you need to do is serve mostly heavy undersin mostly to his BH (ruckhand).. mix it up between short and long, sometimes half long. He misses even the push... even if he gets it back, you can heavy slow topspin to his bh... even his fh... you get point after point like you are playing Mario bros jumping for coins...

      On serve receive either push heavy underspin or slow heavy attack... if not confident, attack weaker high percentage and heavy push his block. That will set you up time and time again.

      On serve, dont do anything fancy, dont worry too much about disguise with him. Serve mostly heavy under, 10 percent do something else to keep him honest.

      You have enough tools to win vs him 3-0 or 3-1 every time.

      Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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    8. Top | #9865
      burhanayan is offline
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      Thank you for the detailed explanation. I still remember how I felt nervous during points while watching my game. Looks like the brain is still dead Because it was an away game and I had 5 minutes to get warm, I had less confidence on my critical shots.

      He was returning my long serves with backspin. My intention was to get in a faster game but his pushes blew me away. He was covering almost whole table with his BH. I felt like I stuck in his game.

      I will work on my spin variation. I try to do it always full power. It is time to step up!

      As a looper, I try to loop everything. My mind is sticking to loop. I stop focusing on my pushes.

      Again, thank you for very comprehensive answer. Echt Geil!

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    9. Top | #9866
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Super. You can learn a lot from a loss like that. Some players, it just doesn't pay to play fast.

      You had... and still have several technical and tactical advantages over that player.

      You just need to stay within what plays to those advantages.

      Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

    10. Top | #9867
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by burhanayan View Post
      Thank you for the detailed explanation. I still remember how I felt nervous during points while watching my game. Looks like the brain is still dead Because it was an away game and I had 5 minutes to get warm, I had less confidence on my critical shots.

      He was returning my long serves with backspin. My intention was to get in a faster game but his pushes blew me away. He was covering almost whole table with his BH. I felt like I stuck in his game.

      I will work on my spin variation. I try to do it always full power. It is time to step up!

      As a looper, I try to loop everything. My mind is sticking to loop. I stop focusing on my pushes.

      Again, thank you for very comprehensive answer. Echt Geil!

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      A good coach told me that if the opponent doesn't change there is no need for you to change anything.

      I will return with my take later but it is different in some ways from DE. I think you pushed way too many long serves and used your backhand improperly way too many times. But I will explain later.
      Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

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    12. Top | #9868
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      I only watched a short amount. But something I am wondering: what are you trying to do with your serves?

      I can see what your opponent is trying to do. I can see what he wants back from his serves. Sometimes it looks like you are almost hoping the ball won't come back on your serve and then when it does, you don't seem prepared for the possibilities.

      Learning to use the serve to set up a play or strategy might be useful.

      Strokes, technique seem pretty okay. Sometimes you are forcing things that you are not prepared for. But the technique is not the problem. Preparedness. Reading what is coming to you and choosing ways to respond. That seems to need work.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 3 Weeks Ago at 07:44 PM.
      Spin Everything.

    13. Top | #9869
      burhanayan is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      I think you pushed way too many long serves and used your backhand improperly way too many times.
      Yes because he was pushing my long serve like a chopper but unfamiliar way. I always thought that I should keep doing it, because my backspin(!) serve flipped or pushed awkwardly.

      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      I only watched a short amount. But something I am wondering: what are you trying to do with your serves?

      I can see what your opponent is trying to do. I can see what he wants back from his serves. Sometimes it looks like you are almost hoping the ball won't come back on your serve and then when it does, you don't seem prepared for the possibilities.

      Learning to use the serve to set up a play or strategy might be useful.

      Strokes, technique seem pretty okay. Sometimes you are forcing things that you are not prepared for. But the technique is not the problem. Preparedness. Reading what is coming to you and choosing ways to respond. That seems to need work.
      Because his returns disturbed me a lot, I failed while playing against those returns. There was blocker with 200 less TTR points, I was desperate against her blocks. The more I spin the quicker she blocks. I lost against her. Next time I played push-push-topspin, then solved. But main problem I think my topspins were too fast that I couldn't handle the next one.

      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      On serve, dont do anything fancy, dont worry too much about disguise with him. Serve mostly heavy under, 10 percent do something else to keep him honest.
      Today I focused the backspin more on my serves! It made everything easier.

      I started to my session today with suggestion to myself;
      - Always look opponent's racket, how he is hitting the ball exactly.
      - Open up primarily with safe topspin. Safe enough that you can watch your opponent's racket movement after you hit.


      Voila!

      My rallies lasted 2x more. I was aware what I was doing. When I found a good ball, I did my powerful topspins nevertheless. I felt like I was on another level. But there is a thin line between doing safe topspin and being way too loose to perform shot.

      I should work on safe topspins not to be more than net height.

      When the time comes and my shots become perfect, I can start doing more powerful ones.
      Last edited by burhanayan; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:19 PM.

    14. Top | #9870
      Der_Echte is offline
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      The "safe" topspin is just a lower sin, better placed better quality low spin topspin... a decent shot.

      My suggestion was to open with extreme heavy slow spin, you did that more often in games 1 and 2 and it helped you win.

      I agreed (and hope I said as much) with Next Level on the receive of long serves. You had very poor quality pushes on those. It would be better for you to do your "safe" topspin if you didn't read the ball. Where you read the ball well, you have better options.

      I could go on and on and on and on... just about serves. So can Next Level and he knows what he is talking about.

      If you have read the forum much, you notice I like to discuss that topic a lot.

      I normally do not believe in serving long more than occasionally, but with this opponent (Wolfgang) a deep heavy under spin, a half long underspin, and a short under spin would be great if they were heavy. Mix up locations and sometimes take off the spin on the half long ones. mix in a side top or side deep.

      That is advice for only that opponent. In real TT life against other opponents, you have to have variation Spin, tempo, break of ball, direction, location...

      You need to show heavy under spin right away before you can make a variation of light spin effective. A light or no spin serve can be your best friend if done right and setup with the heavy under spin serve. Ditto with the rest of the factors - you have to show the opponent you can do them to make a change effective... and do it with at least basic disguise.

      With that opponent, you had no need to rally with him much - it is good to fall back on. Your under, or well placed dead or heavy topspin would win point after point. You went for too much on a lot of your shots later in the match and it bit you.

    15. Top | #9871
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      By the way, what are the range of TTR for players in this king of league or team competition?

    16. Top | #9872
      Der_Echte is offline
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      I should work on safe topspins not to be more than net height.
      There is a kind of safe topspin many Div 1 Korean players do… (this class of players is around 1800-2000 TTR)

      When the player decides it is not worth a strong attack or they are out of position, they let the ball fall a little below the table, like 10 cm... and they do a soft topspin… the ball barely goes over the net, ball is slow and low and light spin... ball will kick... looks like an easy ball to attack, but unless perfectly timed, a mistake, so the opponent often bumps it back. This gives you a chance to recover position and get back on attack. Often, you get a good attacking chance for a strong attack.

    17. Top | #9873
      burhanayan is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      The "safe" topspin is just a lower sin, better placed better quality low spin topspin... a decent shot.

      My suggestion was to open with extreme heavy slow spin, you did that more often in games 1 and 2 and it helped you win.

      I agreed (and hope I said as much) with Next Level on the receive of long serves. You had very poor quality pushes on those. It would be better for you to do your "safe" topspin if you didn't read the ball. Where you read the ball well, you have better options.

      I could go on and on and on and on... just about serves. So can Next Level and he knows what he is talking about.

      If you have read the forum much, you notice I like to discuss that topic a lot.

      I normally do not believe in serving long more than occasionally, but with this opponent (Wolfgang) a deep heavy under spin, a half long underspin, and a short under spin would be great if they were heavy. Mix up locations and sometimes take off the spin on the half long ones. mix in a side top or side deep.

      That is advice for only that opponent. In real TT life against other opponents, you have to have variation Spin, tempo, break of ball, direction, location...

      You need to show heavy under spin right away before you can make a variation of light spin effective. A light or no spin serve can be your best friend if done right and setup with the heavy under spin serve. Ditto with the rest of the factors - you have to show the opponent you can do them to make a change effective... and do it with at least basic disguise.

      With that opponent, you had no need to rally with him much - it is good to fall back on. Your under, or well placed dead or heavy topspin would win point after point. You went for too much on a lot of your shots later in the match and it bit you.
      Yes I meant both slow heavy spin by saying safe and also letting the ball drop down little and than spin.

      For the pushes, I added this training to my todo list I am looking forward to practice it.
      https://youtu.be/3ERLpp2ko_g

      For the serves, I know relatively my serve and game, but as I meant I was not comfortable enough to use my wrist on backspin. I was afraid of failing actually. But if I pushed myself doing backspin serves effectively, it could have been easy for the following rally even if I fail, I don't know. I will try next time.

      I have never thought about showing first the most spinny serve, then least. Great tip!

      The one I lost was 1430, the one I won was 1480 in another video.
      Average TTR in my league is around 1500. The least was 1380 except me and 1680 the best. I have 1333.



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      Last edited by burhanayan; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:42 AM.

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    19. Top | #9874
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by burhanayan View Post
      Yes I meant both slow heavy spin by saying safe and also letting the ball drop down little and than spin.

      For the pushes, I added this training to my todo list I am looking forward to practice it.
      https://youtu.be/3ERLpp2ko_g

      For the serves, I know relatively my serve and game, but as I meant I was not comfortable enough to use my wrist on backspin. I was afraid of failing actually. But if I pushed myself doing backspin serves effectively, it could have been easy for the following rally even if I fail, I don't know. I will try next time.

      I have never thought about showing first the most spinny serve, then least. Great tip!

      The one I lost was 1430, the one I won was 1480 in another video.
      Average TTR in my league is around 1500. The least was 1380 except me and 1680 the best. I have 1333.



      Sent from Tapatalk

      Since I have time, let me comment.

      First of all, you really should have won the 4th game. I don't know whether it is because you lost the match or because you don't have a lot of experience playing certain styles that you feel he returned your serves well - I suspect the issue is partly that you lack the right stroke to put away those balls consistently. Your spin was bothering him, but you felt compelled to take more risk than necessary maybe because you don't understand your whole game well? Since DerEchte has covered this, let me touch on a few other things.

      You can't serve short to someone's forehand and then recover to the backhand side of the table since you have given them your wide forehand and you will be too slow to get there. You have a lot of work to do on your game in terms of understanding what your serve placement does in terms of where the opponent can put the ball.

      A lot of his serves to your forehand were not short. They would have come long enough to loop if you had waited for them because they weren't backspin serves.

      Your strokes use too much wrist and upper arm movement. You have good strokes but they will cause you instability for a while because they are not going into the ball all the time. There is also too much upper arm usage in many situations. With the new ball, it is better to swing at the ball with an open racket and generate the spin with the quality of the contact. Otherwise, you will not be able to play certain shots easily especially over the table. You do play some really good shots, but when you use your excessive spin contact, you miss some balls. Your quality is really good when you make contact, but you miss more than you should because you don't make contact while trying to get spin.

      You also play too many backhands on easy balls. You make more than your fair share of them, but you really should be pivoting to play a heavy spin or put away shot. You looped into his backhand a bit too much you have to practice going to more places on the table.

      All of that said, if you can make your spin shot consistent, you really should win this easily. Being up 8-3 in the 4th and losing that was really interesting.

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    21. Top | #9875
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      Since I have time, let me comment.

      First of all, you really should have won the 4th game. I don't know whether it is because you lost the match or because you don't have a lot of experience playing certain styles that you feel he returned your serves well - I suspect the issue is partly that you lack the right stroke to put away those balls consistently. Your spin was bothering him, but you felt compelled to take more risk than necessary maybe because you don't understand your whole game well? Since DerEchte has covered this, let me touch on a few other things.

      You can't serve short to someone's forehand and then recover to the backhand side of the table since you have given them your wide forehand and you will be too slow to get there. You have a lot of work to do on your game in terms of understanding what your serve placement does in terms of where the opponent can put the ball.

      A lot of his serves to your forehand were not short. They would have come long enough to loop if you had waited for them because they weren't backspin serves.

      Your strokes use too much wrist and upper arm movement. You have good strokes but they will cause you instability for a while because they are not going into the ball all the time. There is also too much upper arm usage in many situations. With the new ball, it is better to swing at the ball with an open racket and generate the spin with the quality of the contact. Otherwise, you will not be able to play certain shots easily especially over the table. You do play some really good shots, but when you use your excessive spin contact, you miss some balls. Your quality is really good when you make contact, but you miss more than you should because you don't make contact while trying to get spin.

      You also play too many backhands on easy balls. You make more than your fair share of them, but you really should be pivoting to play a heavy spin or put away shot. You looped into his backhand a bit too much you have to practice going to more places on the table.

      All of that said, if you can make your spin shot consistent, you really should win this easily. Being up 8-3 in the 4th and losing that was really interesting.
      Thank you for commenting.

      I was missing many more shots than this before summer. Then I started to work on my BH more. Now I am confident using it more. Because of inconsistency of my BH loop, should I hit the back of the ball more over the table or against long push?

      Lately, I am mainly doing FH drills to use both of them.

      During these drills, I played FH topspin into opponents backhand. Maybe I should change the position of my blocker from BH to FH in order not to forget wide FH.

      I would like to ask where should a looper serve in order to get in FH topspin rally in general?
      Should it be short to opponent's BH. Then opponent returns crosscourt, I play BH topspin(or flick) down the line. Next ball comes to FH...

      Or short to opponent's transition point?

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    22. Top | #9876
      Der_Echte is offline
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      I used to be SO so so sos BH oriented, then I worked on FH and became too FH happy for my own good. You have to find your balance point... so stay on balance knees bent and play it as it comes, but count on the FH to finish plays.

      We could talk all night about serving, but as NL discusses, your serves and attack have a purpose and a connection, you have to develop that plan and link. We cannot say this or this, but remember what I said about unpredictability and variation.

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    24. Top | #9877
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by burhanayan View Post
      Thank you for commenting.

      I was missing many more shots than this before summer. Then I started to work on my BH more. Now I am confident using it more. Because of inconsistency of my BH loop, should I hit the back of the ball more over the table or against long push?

      Lately, I am mainly doing FH drills to use both of them.

      During these drills, I played FH topspin into opponents backhand. Maybe I should change the position of my blocker from BH to FH in order not to forget wide FH.

      I would like to ask where should a looper serve in order to get in FH topspin rally in general?
      Should it be short to opponent's BH. Then opponent returns crosscourt, I play BH topspin(or flick) down the line. Next ball comes to FH...

      Or short to opponent's transition point?

      Sent from Tapatalk
      Usually, a looper should serve short with topspin or backspin, double bounce short unless the opponent loops really well over the table or attacks long balls well, in which case you serve really short if the opponent cannot push. If you want the ball to come to your forehand, serve into the opponent's forehand, if you want the ball to come to the backhand, serve into the opponent's backhand. Some opponents will return the ball differently, but they will have to take risks going to the short side of the table and those risks will either give you a slower ball or opportunities. IF you serve a ball that doesn't have heavy spin or which is relatively hard to push short, step back to a good ready position so that you have time to see what the opponent is doing and respond to it. The thing about good short serves is that they put the opponent in a box and the long push of a good short serve is what the backhand topspin against backspin is really designed for. It is much trickier to use the backhand topspin against chops or weird balls, though it is possible with really strong European style backhands or Wang Hao style backhands where the ball is played with large shoulder movement. The thing is that your opponent didn't have a good countertopspin vs heavy spin so you should really have focused on playing a slow heavy spin opener and getting ready to play behind it. As DE pointed out, you almost always won the point when you did this.

      Playing into the transition point is best, especially against taller players, though people with good footwork make it really hard to find the transition point. IT is also better to try to play short with sidespin fade so that the ball bends away from the backhand. Playing into the backhand directly is too easy. It can work for players whose level is clearly lower than yours, but when you play higher level players or players at your level, the good blockers will force you to stay in position and use your backhand.

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    26. Top | #9878
      Takkyu_wa_inochi is offline
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      At the moment, I feel a bit desperate about one particular weakness (among others) that I find very difficult to improve.
      I feel my recovery after my serve is way too slow and that I even tend to stay static that is after the recovery i don’t make an extra adjustment if the ball is not where I expected. A simple agressive push will put me out of position or force a bad opening loop when it’s not a direct miss

      I wonder how I can work better on that. Because I keep drilling but don’t see much improvement

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      Quote Originally Posted by Takkyu_wa_inochi View Post
      At the moment, I feel a bit desperate about one particular weakness (among others) that I find very difficult to improve.
      I feel my recovery after my serve is way too slow and that I even tend to stay static that is after the recovery i don’t make an extra adjustment if the ball is not where I expected. A simple agressive push will put me out of position or force a bad opening loop when it’s not a direct miss

      I wonder how I can work better on that. Because I keep drilling but don’t see much improvement
      It could just be that you don't have the right serve. But you need to have recovered into place as the ball bounces on the opponent's side.

      The serve quality with height, depth, spin and deception plays a big role. Serving into the opponent's middle while keeping the ball short can prevent them from taking hard strokes without moving. But a serve that is hard to read quickly and attack hard also gives you time.

      It ultimately comes down to preparing for the various returns. But the right serve is key. Even top players recover faster after than some serves than they do others. One of the reasons why some players go to serves from the middle is that they want to cut off angles and reduce their recovery pressure to certain points on the table.

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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      Usually, a looper should serve short with topspin or backspin, double bounce short unless the opponent loops really well over the table or attacks long balls well, in which case you serve really short if the opponent cannot push. If you want the ball to come to your forehand, serve into the opponent's forehand, if you want the ball to come to the backhand, serve into the opponent's backhand. Some opponents will return the ball differently, but they will have to take risks going to the short side of the table and those risks will either give you a slower ball or opportunities. IF you serve a ball that doesn't have heavy spin or which is relatively hard to push short, step back to a good ready position so that you have time to see what the opponent is doing and respond to it. The thing about good short serves is that they put the opponent in a box and the long push of a good short serve is what the backhand topspin against backspin is really designed for. It is much trickier to use the backhand topspin against chops or weird balls, though it is possible with really strong European style backhands or Wang Hao style backhands where the ball is played with large shoulder movement. The thing is that your opponent didn't have a good countertopspin vs heavy spin so you should really have focused on playing a slow heavy spin opener and getting ready to play behind it. As DE pointed out, you almost always won the point when you did this.

      Playing into the transition point is best, especially against taller players, though people with good footwork make it really hard to find the transition point. IT is also better to try to play short with sidespin fade so that the ball bends away from the backhand. Playing into the backhand directly is too easy. It can work for players whose level is clearly lower than yours, but when you play higher level players or players at your level, the good blockers will force you to stay in position and use your backhand.
      I noted them down. That was very clear answer.

      Thank you!

      Sent from Tapatalk

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