Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

UpSideDownCarl said:

Mark is awesome. His last USATT rating was about 2350 but since then he spent a year traveling to great coaches in California, Europe and China and his level was probably close to 2500 if not over it before he was forced to stop playing because of a weird shoulder injury. It is getting better. But he still can't play with it so he is learning to play lefty and I would say he is probably 1800-1900 lefty. He has learned pretty fast. Crazy.

But the best part of training with him is that he is a natural teacher and his eye for the game is really at 2500 maybe higher. So, he pinpoints things for me to correct and focus on even while we are training and each helping the other improve. I feel pretty lucky to get to train with him as often as I do.



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Whoa, that's pretty impressive. He must really love the game if he got so good so quickly.
Now when i start playing with my left hand, things get real ugly. Especially on the BH side.
[Emoji2]
Have a good time, buddy.

Suga D said:

Tareq, see it's all about deceiptiveness here.
If you use a different kind of serve with different kind of spin, a smart and experienced opponent will find out quickly and the whole effect of the serve will be out the window.

Whereas if you use the same kind of motion but vary the spin it will be much more difficult to read 'cause everything happens in a split second and you have to observe closely.

Maybe practicing with a higher level player will show you what we're trying to explain to you.

When we had Thomas Keinath coaching us, in the end of the practice session he let everyone receive five serves. If one didn't observe closely one could easily get fooled by this, 'cause he used five times nearly the same motion but each time it had different spin.
Side-top spin
Side-back spin
Pure side spin one way
Pure side spin the other way
Pure back spin.
And even higher level players sometimes fail to read the spin properly.

Timo Boll once said after he played against Waldner that sometimes all he could do was guess, 'cause he was unable to read it properly.

Same thing was said about Werner Schlager's serves.
Even high level players could sometimes only guess....

And exactly THIS is the reason why those top level players mostly use the same looking motion, 'cause the serves look the same even though they're NOT!



The amount of sarcasm in this post is unrivaled.
[Emoji1]

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Thank you very much!

UpSideDownCarl said:

I was going to leave the subject of serving out because the level of hubris coupled with a complete lack of understanding of the subtleties of the serve and receive game and an inability to see and read spin that causes Tareq to claim he is better than 2400 level players like Mishel and Mark or even 2200 level players like Rich and Philippe, has me thinking that Shuki's post is the best possible reply to someone who is delusional.

However, this is great information about serving for everyone else. So why deprive people who want to learn of this great information. Thanks Suga D.

In this video, the great Werner Schlager explains how top level players touch different parts of the ball with the same serve motion to create completely different serves that, to the inexperienced observer, look exactly the same. Even though they are completely different.

So, with the motion of a pendulum serve you can create:

1) backspin
2) varying degrees of sidespin with backspin
3) topspin
4) varying degrees of sidespin with topspin
5) no spin

Same thing with a reverse pendulum, a hook, a punch or a tomahawk serve.

Since the varying angles of the axis of spin on the side/back and side/top serves is UNLIMITED, one serve motion with subtle changes of the contact point, can produce an unlimited number of different serves.

And then someone who doesn't know the game says, "how come they use the same serve every time!"

At SPiN where most of the people who play there are recreational players, I am often asked, "why would you serve easy serves like that?" When they see me practicing short serves.

So, then I get them to try and receive the serves. And when one goes straight down and hits the table, and the next flies left, and the next flies right and the next pops up and flies 5-6 feet off the table, they still don't fully understand that there were different serves. It's sort of like some mysterious form of magic caused the ball to do those things.


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Great explanation and that video really supports the explanation.
[Emoji106]
Werner is one of the best servers i've seen and he can really explain it understandable for kids plus i also like his slight Schwarzenegger-Accent: I'll be back!
[Emoji2]
I luv that part with the magic.
Now your paddle's name "Magic Wand" makes so much more sense.

But it's almost like the guys that say, that there must have been some dust or anything on the table, or it must have been the AC/Wind...

[Emoji23]

TareqPhoto said:

Thank you very much!

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Oh, you're very welcome. I hope this was understandable and it helps your game somehow. But I think Carl's Schlager-Vid explains it even better...

Suga D said:

Great explanation and that video really supports the explanation.
[Emoji106]
Werner is one of the best servers i've seen and he can really explain it understandable for kids plus i also like his slight Schwarzenegger-Accent: I'll be back!
[Emoji2]
I luv that part with the magic.
Now your paddle's name "Magic Wand" makes so much more sense.

But it's almost like the guys that say, that there must have been some dust or anything on the table, or it must have been the AC/Wind...

[Emoji23]



Oh, you're very welcome. I hope this was understandable and it helps your game somehow. But I think Carl's Schlager-Vid explains it even better...

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Soon i am gonna ask about something, and hope this will open a new page for me, but yes indeed that all or any video sure can explain good enough what is right and what is wrong, and that is why you all ask for videos.

Suga D said:

i also like his slight Schwarzenegger-Accent: I'll be back!
[Emoji2]

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Hahaha. "I'll be back!"

Suga D said:

I luv that part with the magic.
Now your paddle's name "Magic Wand" makes so much more sense.

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More background, I sent The Death Stick to Liten. [emoji2] The Death Stick, in Harry Potter was the most powerful wand in wizarding history. If the wand gave you its allegiance, you could not be beaten in a wizarding duel. It has a long sordid history where each owner of the wand is followed and killed for it. Hence the name, The Death Stick. It has two other names: The Elder Wand and The Wand of Destiny. The Elder Wand is the name of my TB ZLF.

In the first book Olivander (the famous wand maker) explains, "the wand chooses the wizard." There is a symbiotic bond between wand and wizard. Through the books, Harry's Wand is made of Holly with a Phoenix Feather core. It is an ordinary wand but there is an extraordinary bond between Harry and this particular wand. As Harry grows and battles Voldemort, his evil adversary, as Harry gains magical experience, so does his wand. It acquires secret magic from these battles with Voldemort as Harry does. But, it is still a very ordinary blade in comparison to The Wand of Destiny.

At the end of the 7th book of the Harry Potter series, after he wins the allegiance of The Death Stick and defeats Voldemort, Harry uses The Elder Wand, The Wand of Destiny, The Unbeatable Wand, to repair his broken Holly and Phoenix Feather wand. He relinquishes The Unbeatable Wand to have a regular wand that he likes more for the amazing qualities of its ordinariness.

And so, my OSP Virtuoso Plus is named: HOLLY AND PHOENIX FEATHER!!!

Suga D said:

But it's almost like the guys that say, that there must have been some dust or anything on the table, or it must have been the AC/Wind...[Emoji23]

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Yeah. I love this. Or they blame their racket. It somehow they just aren't playing well. "I was just playing great but now, somehow, I am messing up!" Without any recognition that in a sport like table tennis, what the opponent does determines what you can do. And if you are not paying attention to what the opponent does, you will be in trouble. Higher level play involves paying attention, reading and responding to what the opponent does so you can counter it effectively. When you don't read those things, when you don't pay attention, you mess up in ways that, on the surface seem like they were unforced errors. But they are not. You did not see the ball properly. You did not read the spin and adjust to the ball properly. Those are not mistakes that those things happen. When they happen, you did not see what was happening properly. And that is a skill that takes years to develop.

Mark Croitoroo has told me that playing matches against a guy like Atanda Musa is one of the best things a decent level player can do if they want to improve because he does some real magic tricks with his racket and you always have to pay attention when you play him because his level of deception and his fake followthrough motions even during the rallies can have opponents wanting to pull their hair out. At 58 years old Atanda Musa is still one of the most talented artist/magicians the sport has ever known.

And his laugh, his good sense of humor and his uplifting spirit are something everyone who loves this sport should witness in person at least once.

I can't tell you how many times, in a tense match situation, I have seen him do something remarkable that made my eyes roll back in their sockets in wonder only to hear him laugh and say: "Lucky Shot!"

Yes, a magic wand is good to have when it has given its allegiance to you.


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Mark Croitoroo doing a Pull Ball Backspin serve. I watched this frame by frame with the Coach My Video App and you can see what looks like a distance of about 3 inches where the ball is being pulled by the rubber.


Here is me trying to hold the ball on for as long as I can:


When I watched this one frame by frame in Coach My Video, I could tell that I don't hold the ball on the blade face anywhere near as long as Mark does. My racket is also set more for side/backspin here than straight up backspin. But I win the funny facial expression award as my mouth is wide open on the second serve. Hahaha.


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Woah. Mark's paddle visibly holds onto that ball for a while, I've seen this from a few people in person and initially thought it was just because they used a tacky rubber. But this isn't the case, I want to debunk the theorizers out there before they all say it's because he's using sticky chinese national goon-squad hurricane. It can be done with tensors as well as tack-monsters

Shuki said:

Woah. Mark's paddle visibly holds onto that ball for a while, I've seen this from a few people in person and initially thought it was just because they used a tacky rubber. But this isn't the case, I want to debunk the theorizers out there before they all say it's because he's using sticky chinese national goon-squad hurricane. It can be done with tensors as well as tack-monsters

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Gazackly. Mark is using Tenergy all the way. It is pretty cool how long he can hold the ball on the rubber. He said that when he was training in Europe there were guys who held the ball on the rubber so long when they were looping that it was as if they were getting their racket to have sex with the ball during the contact. hahaha.

Carl,

Sounds like someone had good taste for music. Playing the music of my late great country man.

The pull is less about holding the ball and more about the contact point of the stroke on the ball.

NextLevel said:

Too much of the match and your attitude was influenced by prior history. He is a structurally unsound player who uses athleticism instead of strategy to cover up his bad structure. His backspin attack is not a powerful stroke and he is serving mostly sidespin to mask this. You should mostly attack hard to where he is going to play a forehand and push/block to where he is going to play a backhand. The first game, you didn't let him get away with the weak pushes and because he has no backhand opener, he was floating the ball back to you hoping you would miss or pop up the ball. You blocked his openers well from the forehand side to your backhand but the down the line ones give you more trouble because the redirection is more difficult for you. But later, rather than opening to the forehand or middle, you just started pushing the ball back and eventually you popped up one for an easy kill.

If you sideswipe his serves more rather than giving him straight backspin push all the time, I think you will do better. Your wrist action on both sides, but especially your backhand and serves, needs some work.

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thanks for answering
TBH i didn't get everything at your advice. My biggest regret on this match was not trying to use my BH more, especially chiquita receive i didn't try even once while i'm quite good at it in training. (FH loop not really good unless i'm very well prepared for it like some 3rd ball attack). In the 2nd and 3rd set i got better at blocking, but i got even worse at getting the initiative first

Boogar said:

It may look like they are all the same serve for the untrained eye.

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"All warfare is based on deception."
~Sun Tzu

EDIT: edited out chinese characters that didn't show up

shuki said:

tareq, you are way too high level of a player! How can you think so smart?! Good luck with you professional table tennis career! Thank you so much for your amazing table tennis knowledge!

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UpSideDownCarl said:

For my money, one of the best posts ever. Can't think of a better or more complete reply.

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Suga D said:

The amount of sarcasm in this post is unrivaled.
[Emoji1]

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thank you! domo arigato gozaimashita! xie xie!

upsidedowncarl said:

more background, i sent the death stick to liten. [emoji2] the death stick, in harry potter was the most powerful wand in wizarding history. If the wand gave you its allegiance, you could not be beaten in a wizarding duel. It has a long sordid history where each owner of the wand is followed and killed for it. Hence the name, the death stick. It has two other names: The elder wand and the wand of destiny. The elder wand is the name of my tb zlf.

In the first book olivander (the famous wand maker) explains, "the wand chooses the wizard." there is a symbiotic bond between wand and wizard. Through the books, harry's wand is made of holly with a phoenix feather core. It is an ordinary wand but there is an extraordinary bond between harry and this particular wand. As harry grows and battles voldemort, his evil adversary, as harry gains magical experience, so does his wand. It acquires secret magic from these battles with voldemort as harry does. But, it is still a very ordinary blade in comparison to the wand of destiny.

At the end of the 7th book of the harry potter series, after he wins the allegiance of the death stick and defeats voldemort, harry uses the elder wand, the wand of destiny, the unbeatable wand, to repair his broken holly and phoenix feather wand. He relinquishes the unbeatable wand to have a regular wand that he likes more for the amazing qualities of its ordinariness.

And so, my osp virtuoso plus is named: Holly and phoenix feather!!!

...

Yes, a magic wand is good to have when it has given its allegiance to you.

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gold! Pure gold!!

Takkyu_wa_inochi said:

thanks for answering
TBH i didn't get everything at your advice. My biggest regret on this match was not trying to use my BH more, especially chiquita receive i didn't try even once while i'm quite good at it in training. (FH loop not really good unless i'm very well prepared for it like some 3rd ball attack). In the 2nd and 3rd set i got better at blocking, but i got even worse at getting the initiative first

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Which part didn't make sense?

The degree of backswing on your backhand ( and I suspect on your Chiquita since they tend to be similar) is too limited to confidently overpower spin in matches. That was why I posted the FZD video. Chiquita is not a trivial stroke commitment. I used to have a good one and once I changed my backhand technique, I lost it. I have a slower rubber again so I am trying to build it back so you may see me using it on serves to my backhand again. Your range of wrist usage has a lot of room to improve.

Took into account the tips on serving I received earlier and tried to apply them today.

Trying to brush the front of the ball when serving backspin made it much easier, but it's not surprisingly a bit shaky still. However the average quality and consistency is a bit better, enough to notice.

The tips I've been given here are very helpful and I'm very grateful, because now I feel like I have more of a real idea of what I'm trying to do.

Archosaurus said:

Took into account the tips on serving I received earlier and tried to apply them today.

Trying to brush the front of the ball when serving backspin made it much easier, but it's not surprisingly a bit shaky still. However the average quality and consistency is a bit better, enough to notice.

The tips I've been given here are very helpful and I'm very grateful, because now I feel like I have more of a real idea of what I'm trying to do.

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Sure, but remember to always find time to post video or you might develop another bad habit that will take forever to undo once it sets in. The higher your level and the more advanced what you have is, the harder it is to undo because you sometimes wonder whether it is worth it. Most of us are getting coached or watching ourselves on a regular basis if we want to improve. Other wise we just play and have fun.

NextLevel said:

Sure, but remember to always find time to post video or you might develop another bad habit that will take forever to undo once it sets in. The higher your level and the more advanced what you have is, the harder it is to undo because you sometimes wonder whether it is worth it. Most of us are getting coached or watching ourselves on a regular basis if we want to improve. Other wise we just play and have fun.

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That's a very good point, I'll keep it in mind.

However I've barely even sampled the tips that I was given and there's no way my subsconscious has really "got it" yet, so I think I will give it at least a day or two more before I ask for more feedback.

Archosaurus said:

That's a very good point, I'll keep it in mind.

However I've barely even sampled the tips that I was given and there's no way my subsconscious has really "got it" yet, so I think I will give it at least a day or two more before I ask for more feedback.

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FWIW, although i'm a slow learner, i'm still working on tips from early October, and imagine it may take me a year or even 2. When i can i post video to document my progress (or lack of progress).

UpSideDownCarl said:

Mark Croitoroo doing a Pull Ball Backspin serve. I watched this frame by frame with the Coach My Video App and you can see what looks like a distance of about 3 inches where the ball is being pulled by the rubber.

Here is me trying to hold the ball on for as long as I can:

When I watched this one frame by frame in Coach My Video, I could tell that I don't hold the ball on the blade face anywhere near as long as Mark does. My racket is also set more for side/backspin here than straight up backspin. But I win the funny facial expression award as my mouth is wide open on the second serve. Hahaha.


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Carl, you are not getting the bat acceleration (and the spin) as you are trying to get the fast movement by moving your upper arm forward during the entire stroke. One cannot accelerate this way to well.

It is good to move the upper arm, but only to the point where the elbow in in position, then one should stop or great not move the upper arm and transfer that energy one started to the lower arm and wrist. Once upper arm moves forward to the impact zone, it quits moving as a pivot on the shoulder joint. Instead, the energy is transferred by stabilizing the elbow (and the upper arm) and swinging the lower arm (then wrist snap). The upper arm should be rotating like it has a rod down the middle and one is spinning on the rod. The lower arm goes forward like a hinge on the elbow. The wrist finishes the acceleration part to make the whip efficient.

This is one efficient way to transfer energy into a slow moving heavy spin.

Archosaurus said:

That's a very good point, I'll keep it in mind.

However I've barely even sampled the tips that I was given and there's no way my subsconscious has really "got it" yet, so I think I will give it at least a day or two more before I ask for more feedback.

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You subconscious never really gets it if you are looking for some form of perfection. In this case, what I would be more concerned with is whether you have stopped using proper whip mechanics and timing to swing at the ball just because you are focused on these drills.