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    1. Top | #61
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by laistrogian View Post
      Not entirely sure what's the age of "adult" for you but I started with carbon blade when i was 13 and now I'm 20 (took a lot of breaks here and there) so there's that

      I do have 2 all-wood, YEO (EL-P / Vega JP) and Offensive S. YEO is probably my favorite all-wood after acoustic. I didn't like offensive S on the other hand, I was using MX-P with and it lacks a crisp feeling, something that I got from YEO and acoustic. It felt like I can't get a read from the blade.

      Do you think I should just use my YEO instead or probably buy an all-wood that's actually had crisps feeling? or even re-buy an acoustic?
      You seen to have become addicted to "crisp feeling" which I think is another word for what I call "hard contact". Looping is not about crisp feeling, it is about deforming the rubber and maybe the wood and getting the ball to stay on your paddle long enough for you to impart good spin onto it. Looping with good spin and hard contact is actually a higher level skill. When I was about your rating, liking blades like the YEO and trying out blades like the TBS set me back for a long time. IF you learn to use and appreciate the Offensive S, you will learn a lot. MX-P is a good rubber but it is probably challenging your current skill level.

      Usually, when I say kids can use anything, I usually assume that kids are getting coaching from day 1, and adults are coming into coaching later in life with with all their bad habits set. Adults who have played basement and are used to hitting the ball hard need all the help they can get to retrain their instincts for spin and having good feedback on when they spin (little vibration) vs, when they flat hit (too much vibration) is helpful. With composite blades, you get little vibration no matter what you do. OF course, there are differences, but it takes training to seek them, training best acquired with a wood blade.

      You can get an Acoustic, which is an excellent blade, but I am not a fan of wasting money. You have a perfectly good blade that can teach you the very thing you need to understand if you are trying to learn to loop proficiently. Learning to loop is in part about the art of increasing dwell time. Hard contact tends to reduce dwell time unless you have the skill to get the right contact depth, and that is a difficult skill to acquire and is even harder to acquire with a blade that doesn't tell you what to look for easily.
      Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

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    3. Top | #62
      laistrogian is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      You seen to have become addicted to "crisp feeling" which I think is another word for what I call "hard contact". Looping is not about crisp feeling, it is about deforming the rubber and maybe the wood and getting the ball to stay on your paddle long enough for you to impart good spin onto it. Looping with good spin and hard contact is actually a higher level skill. When I was about your rating, liking blades like the YEO and trying out blades like the TBS set me back for a long time. IF you learn to use and appreciate the Offensive S, you will learn a lot. MX-P is a good rubber but it is probably challenging your current skill level.

      Usually, when I say kids can use anything, I usually assume that kids are getting coaching from day 1, and adults are coming into coaching later in life with with all their bad habits set. Adults who have played basement and are used to hitting the ball hard need all the help they can get to retrain their instincts for spin and having good feedback on when they spin (little vibration) vs, when they flat hit (too much vibration) is helpful. With composite blades, you get little vibration no matter what you do. OF course, there are differences, but it takes training to seek them, training best acquired with a wood blade.

      You can get an Acoustic, which is an excellent blade, but I am not a fan of wasting money. You have a perfectly good blade that can teach you the very thing you need to understand if you are trying to learn to loop proficiently. Learning to loop is in part about the art of increasing dwell time. Hard contact tends to reduce dwell time unless you have the skill to get the right contact depth, and that is a difficult skill to acquire and is even harder to acquire with a blade that doesn't tell you what to look for easily.
      If you think MX-P is too fast, which rubber do you think would be suitable then? I generally like rubbers with super high throw on FH with medium throw rubber on BH generally. Basically I like setup such as T05/T64 combo

    4. Top | #63
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by laistrogian View Post
      If you think MX-P is too fast, which rubber do you think would be suitable then? I generally like rubbers with super high throw on FH with medium throw rubber on BH generally. Basically I like setup such as T05/T64 combo
      I think the first question is whether you have a coach. If not, do you record yourself? High throw rubbers are good in the sense that they generate good spin and loop for you sometimes. The bad thing is that they don't challenge your technique as much and you can loop with really bad technique when using them. This can be a good or a bad thing depending on whether your technique is good or not. When you have good technique, you don't mind that extra help when you are out of position. But when you have bad technique, or are trying to improve, using something that lets you get away with bad habits is not ideal.

      If you have video of yourself, you can get free advice on the forum.

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    6. Top | #64
      laistrogian is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      I think the first question is whether you have a coach. If not, do you record yourself? High throw rubbers are good in the sense that they generate good spin and loop for you sometimes. The bad thing is that they don't challenge your technique as much and you can loop with really bad technique when using them. This can be a good or a bad thing depending on whether your technique is good or not. When you have good technique, you don't mind that extra help when you are out of position. But when you have bad technique, or are trying to improve, using something that lets you get away with bad habits is not ideal.

      If you have video of yourself, you can get free advice on the forum.
      I do, but in general he doesn't comment a lot about my equipments because I don't really do private coaching session with him. My 2300 friend did ask me if I'm using hurricane (which I wasn't, I was using T05) because on multiball opening loop, he told me I was ripping the ball early with a lot of arm acceleration.

      I think my FH has a pretty big tolerance, it took me a week to get used to H3 Neo from MX-P and then another week to go back to T05. I do love H3, but the rubber makes me work a lot, since I loop mostly on FH.

    7. Top | #65
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by laistrogian View Post
      I do, but in general he doesn't comment a lot about my equipments because I don't really do private coaching session with him. My 2300 friend did ask me if I'm using hurricane (which I wasn't, I was using T05) because on multiball opening loop, he told me I was ripping the ball early with a lot of arm acceleration.

      I think my FH has a pretty big tolerance, it took me a week to get used to H3 Neo from MX-P and then another week to go back to T05. I do love H3, but the rubber makes me work a lot, since I loop mostly on FH.
      Okay. Let's table this for another time and another thread. You seem to enjoy playing with what you use and that is what matters. If you want to get serious about improving, get a coach and use either what they recommend or an all-wood 5 ply with good feeling and soft outer ply.

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    9. Top | #66
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      I don't think I am playing table tennis this week. I am going to relax and rest. I do have coaching today though, so that might interrupt me a little but the Cavs are playing the Warriors. Maybe I will try to get out of it.

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    11. Top | #67
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      Quote Originally Posted by laistrogian View Post
      I'm 1300 btw although probably i play around 1450-1550
      Based on that description and the rest of what you are saying, at 20 years old, I would say that puts you squarely in the adult learner's category even if you started at 13 years old.

      And if 1300 is your actual rating and, even if your true level is more like 1450-1550, what NextLevel is talking about sounds like it is directly on target.

      I come from playing baseball. As a kid I played baseball. In baseball you use direct contact and totally head-on impact. It was the hardest thing to learn to really spin the ball, to make delicate contact, to play with how far to let the ball sink in on different shots while brushing and using the deformation of the rubber. Now, none of that stuff, at least for me, is cerebral. It is all done on a subconscious level. The balls I loop with a very soft touch that have crazy spin, but are slow, the shots where I make deeper contact, the shots that are in between the two extremes, at some point you intuitively know what kind of touch and contact to use.

      Why am I saying all this? I don't want to give the wrong impression. I am not a very high level player. I won't put a rating on myself because I think ratings are things you have to earn from playing competitions. I have had people say I must be 1800-1850 minimum. But I am pretty sure that is not accurate because I am one of those players who have good technique for certain things and totally suck at other things: in particular, receiving serves. I know I have beaten 1900 level players if I match up well against them. I know I have lost to guys who are 1500-1600 when they did something that capitalized on one of my many game skill weaknesses.

      But I know this next thing for sure: my loop has too much spin, from either wing (6 months ago that was only from FH but my BH loop is beginning to catch up and may get more spin when I nail it) for someone under 1600. I could still lose on occasion by playing unintelligent tactics. But usually I don't have to work very hard to beat someone that level because I can loop it right to them and that ball will usually not come anywhere close to the table even when I hit it right to their racket. In a match situation, heavy spin on one of my opening loops usually does not come back if the person is under 1700. Someone 2000, after they feel one, they don't have much problem with that same ball.

      What am I saying all this for?

      If your spin was in the category I am talking about, without anything else changing, your level would likely go up 200-400 points. It just would. 1300 level players don't spin the ball like that and can't handle when someone else does. And they generally don't know they are not spinning the ball. In fact, they generally think they are spinning the ball.

      So, this is my recommendation:

      If you take that Xiom Offensive S, which is a great blade, and put T05 on FH and T64 or T05fx on BH, and just commit to using that setup and nothing else for the next 3 months, and focused on brushing the ball and getting as much spin on your loops as possible, you will start to understand why NextLevel has said the things he has said.

      Do you need the rubbers I mentioned? No! Could it be different rubbers? Yes! There are tons that would work! Baracuda, Vitctas V>01, EL-P, FX-P, Vega Pro, Omega V Pro....should I go on? The reason MX-P isn't an ideal option isn't because of the speed and IS because of the hardness of the sponge. It is usually better to learn the type of touch for brushing with something a little softer than MX-P. You may not even notice the difference. But it is related to the same reason why you like those hard blades and can't feel why they won't help your game in the long run.

      You also could get an Acoustic if you like that blade because it is a great blade. It is okay being happy about what you are using. But I agree with NextLevel that saving some cash when you already have a great blade, like the Offensive S, is well worth it.

      Right now most of what I am going on is the theory that, if you have been playing since you are 13 and you are 20 and your level is under 1900, something is holding you back and you probably need to learn to spin the ball way better. Of course, I could be wrong which is where NextLevel's suggestion of video would really be useful TO YOU.

      But I have money on the fact that if you try that experiment of using a softer blade like the Offensive S which is all wood, All+/Off- and rubbers that are not too hard, in 3 months of just using that setup, you will understand a lot more of why NextLevel made those suggestions.





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      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 06-08-2016 at 04:45 PM.
      Spin Everything.

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    13. Top | #68
      laistrogian is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      -Snip-
      Yeah I'm probably going to force myself and use offensive S. The reason i'm slightly confused about the rubber is 1) Tenergy is so expensive I can get 2 sheets of other rubbers for one tenergy and 2) MX-P's sponge is too hard.

      I do agree with your statement about MX-P sponge being not suitable for learning, I always don't know how much spin I'm putting on it. With tenergy 05 or EL-P I know how much contact I'm making.

      I'm really aiming to improve my skills but the biggest problem has always been my EJ virus running rampant

      Might get the Omega V pro or tour for the rubbers OR even the new Stiga Genesis M which yogi_bear said is really spinny, I just hope it has medium or even high throw

    14. Top | #69
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      I am sure you know more since you have been getting formal training since an young age, but my advise would be not change your equipment and just focus on technique. If you take proper care a tenergy 05 can last months and so can a MX-P . I have friends who are at 2200+ level and they play with Mark V and I haven't seen anybody under 2000 comfortablly block his forehand loops. So bottomline, equipment does not matter . Once you have figured out your technique, equipment is about fine tuning ...
      Quote Originally Posted by laistrogian View Post
      Yeah I'm probably going to force myself and use offensive S. The reason i'm slightly confused about the rubber is 1) Tenergy is so expensive I can get 2 sheets of other rubbers for one tenergy and 2) MX-P's sponge is too hard.

      I do agree with your statement about MX-P sponge being not suitable for learning, I always don't know how much spin I'm putting on it. With tenergy 05 or EL-P I know how much contact I'm making.

      I'm really aiming to improve my skills but the biggest problem has always been my EJ virus running rampant

      Might get the Omega V pro or tour for the rubbers OR even the new Stiga Genesis M which yogi_bear said is really spinny, I just hope it has medium or even high throw

    15. Top | #70
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Omega V Pro/Europe is great stuff. I am skeptical about any rubber from Stiga. When you have tried a solid setup that will help you improve your spin for a few months you can let the EJ virus take hold. But for now, I would use rubbers that you know are good.

      My money says that NextLevel will have lots of ideas of things that would really help you.

      The experiment will be worth it. After 3 months of sticking with the setup, I have a feeling you will be able to tell why it is harder to develop heavier spin with a harder blade; and what the benefits of a softer blade are.

      As NextLevel already said, for someone at a pretty high level, their contact is good enough to know how to use the harder blade with the rubber to spin the ball heavy with deep impact.

      However, that is a fairly high level technique. For now, the softer blade will help you learn how to hold the ball on the blade face longer to spin the ball more.


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    17. Top | #71
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster View Post
      I am sure you know more since you have been getting formal training since an young age, but my advise would be not change your equipment and just focus on technique. If you take proper care a tenergy 05 can last months and so can a MX-P . I have friends who are at 2200+ level and they play with Mark V and I haven't seen anybody under 2000 comfortablly block his forehand loops. So bottomline, equipment does not matter . Once you have figured out your technique, equipment is about fine tuning ...
      I agree, but it is not in the spirit of what we are telling him. Equipment matters in terms of making it easier to do certain things. It is like trying to tell someone to learn parallel parking with a large SUV. Is it possible, sure, but is it as easy as starting with a compact car, no.

      What we are saying is start with stuff that has high dwell time and get used to looping with stuff that holds the ball. MEdium soft or medium rubbers, ALL+/OFF- blade. When you learn the value of spin generation, then if you choose to play faster with spin, then learn to use faster equipment while getting the consistency you had with the slower equipment. People who know the quality of ball they produce with slower equipment will know what they are looking for with faster equipment. And some of them will not even use the faster equipment because they cannot consistently produce that quality of ball with it.

      If he has a coach, he can use whatever the coach recommends, but some coaches don't have serious experience training adults and overcoming their issues. So he might be told to use things that are NOT tailored to meet his needs. A coach who is getting paid regardless of how you perform doesn't always try to give you everything you need to improve, even if he knows it.
      Last edited by NextLevel; 06-08-2016 at 08:27 PM.

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    19. Top | #72
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      I completely agree with you NextLevel and you might have seen I have often asked for advise on slower blades and rubbers.
      But somehow reading the thread I get the impression he is thinking too much about equipment and trying to change too many factors at the same time, that's why I said what I did ... producing difficult to block loops with Mark V, which is a considerably slower and older rubber technology.
      And you are right about the part on coaches as well

      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      I agree, but it is not in the spirit of what we are telling him. Equipment matters in terms of making it easier to do certain things. It is like trying to tell someone to learn parallel parking with a large SUV. Is it possible, sure, but is it as easy as starting with a compact car, no.

      What we are saying is start with stuff that has high dwell time and get used to looping with stuff that holds the ball. MEdium soft or medium rubbers, ALL+/OFF- blade. When you learn the value of spin generation, then if you choose to play faster with spin, then learn to use faster equipment while getting the consistency you had with the slower equipment. People who know the quality of ball they produce with slower equipment will know what they are looking for with faster equipment. And some of them will not even use the faster equipment because they cannot consistently produce that quality of ball with it.

      If he has a coach, he can use whatever the coach recommends, but some coaches don't have serious experience training adults and overcoming their issues. So he might be told to use things that are tailored to meet his needs. A coach who is getting paid regardless of how you perform doesn't always try to give you everything you need to improve, even if he knows it.

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    21. Top | #73
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster View Post
      I completely agree with you NextLevel and you might have seen I have often asked for advise on slower blades and rubbers.
      But somehow reading the thread I get the impression he is thinking too much about equipment and trying to change too many factors at the same time, that's why I said what I did ... producing difficult to block loops with Mark V, which is a considerably slower and older rubber technology.
      And you are right about the part on coaches as well
      You are a 100% right and I was going to get on him about it but relative to the rest of us, he is young so it is not a big deal. When you don't get coaching or training, the only way to really improve is to EJ - even people who train find their improvement almost imperceptible talk less of people who do not train and do not feel like they are doing anything to improve their game. So those who do not train are often the most serious EJs, as that is their investment into improving.

      In the end, we all know that there is no substitute for the hard hours and experience and practice. But it is still tempting to try...

      I got your point, but I just felt that it conflicted with our telling him that he needs to slow down his equipment. Coaching is the most important thing obviously. Tenergy, I am sometimes conflicted about because it spins so well even for people with bad technique, so I would recommend something not as good so that he has to develop his technique to get good spin out of it. But I don't want him to waste money on rubber either so he can stick to his current Tenergy.

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    23. Top | #74
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      Today I did workout my core, back and chest. Probably going to have muscle aches tomorow...

      In the evening I trainedwith the robot for about 45 minutes. I also recorded some exercises, two falkenberg steps and one looping on backspin.
      Then i did service and recieve drills with a lefthander. Great opportunity to practise my new learned forehandflip!
      Another great experience were how good my serves were against ihm Because when i play against my practice partner he knows all of my serves so well that i cant rly get direct points against him. However against the lefthander it went perfectly i got about 95% direct points with my new feint.

      Actually i got two, one is either a backspin pendulum or a top/sidespin reverse pendulum. The other one is either topsin pendulum or backspin reverse pendulum It was so much fun.
      :-P Sadly he then got a little salty and didnt believe that i did those feints intentionally.
      Last edited by Boogar; 06-08-2016 at 11:20 PM.
      Spin Spin Spin...

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    25. Top | #75
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      I agree, but it is not in the spirit of what we are telling him.
      Saw that comment and was wondering how I would respond. Glad it was taken care of. So, in a way, this comment is beside the point. But, you know me. I can't resist the urge to blab.

      The EJ bug, there are definitely times and ways in which it can be okay. Then there are times where it can get in the way of progress.

      Now it is clear to me that the Vampire Lestat, oops, I mean laistrogian, (but I might remember Lestat better) it is clear to me Lestat is a pretty smart guy and knows a decent amount about equipment. But it seems his EJing has primarily reinforced his attraction to blades that feel great to smack the ball with, and not the kind that make you want to spin the heck out of the ball.

      Also, if you read, it sounds like he has taken group coaching sporadically. But regardless of coaching or not, for a guy as smart and as interested in table tennis to have played since he is 13 and for 7 years total, something is off if he is playing with blades like the ones he likes and has a rating and level anywhere close to what he has listed.

      Again, this is not to dis anyone. But if he was REALLY working with a coach and things were going the way they should, he should be a much different level than what he listed.

      And, from my perspective the comments from NextLevel and me are about helping laistrogian find equipment that will help him develop.

      There is no question that a player who already knows how to spin the hell out of the ball can do it, even with Mark V on a frying pan. But someone who has demonstrated an addiction to SPEED equipment and likes what a ZLC blade feels like, who is under 1800-2200 would almost certainly do better developing spin with an Offensive S than an IF ZLC.

      So, 100%, equipment doesn't matter. And yet, if you are using equipment that is excellent for someone else and terrible for what you need to work on and improve, all of a sudden equipment does matter. Not in the EJ sense. But in the sense of finding something simple that would help a player develop the technique to improve his ability to spin the ball.

      The fact is, a Schlager Carbon, an IF ZLC and a YOE are great blades. But they are not good for what The Vampire Lestat needs to improve on.

      And since he seems to be up for the challenge of using that Offensive S with rubbers that will be good for him to learn to spin, let's sit back and see what happens.

      I am pretty glad he was up for committing to trying that blade for a few months to see how it will help. Because I am confident that if he gives it that amount of time, he will start to FEEL how the change will help his technique.


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    26. The Following 3 Users Like UpSideDownCarl's Post:

      NextLevel (06-09-2016),sspark80 (06-09-2016),ttmonster (06-09-2016)

    27. Top | #76
      Shuki is offline
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      Master TTD Member Country: United States
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      @carl

      I find it odd that you're comparing if Zlc with Schlager carbon. Maybe I'm remembering wrong but when you hit with mine (after hitting with my leidy) you said it felt like a wood blade to you.

      It's carbon is deeper in the blade leading to a more wood-like feeling.

      I'm actually pretty confident that my development was just as good when the IF ZLC was my main tool compared to my development with my violin setup


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      Why practice to become better when you can pretend to be better on a forum?

    28. Top | #77
      laistrogian is offline
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      Senior TTD Member Country: Australia

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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      If he has a coach, he can use whatever the coach recommends, but some coaches don't have serious experience training adults and overcoming their issues. So he might be told to use things that are NOT tailored to meet his needs. A coach who is getting paid regardless of how you perform doesn't always try to give you everything you need to improve, even if he knows it.
      I've only been taking lessons from my current coach for less than 3 months and I don't know if it affects his decisions or not, but he does run a TT shop in his club. But I think he's been a good coach. Most of the time he drills me about my footwork and swinging too big on my FH

      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      Tenergy, I am sometimes conflicted about because it spins so well even for people with bad technique, so I would recommend something not as good so that he has to develop his technique to get good spin out of it. But I don't want him to waste money on rubber either so he can stick to his current Tenergy.
      I'm probably just going with OV Pro and OV Europe with the offensive S. Tenergy's tolerance in making great loop is absurd, I agree.

      Here's a video of me doing some 3rd ball with my friend. This was in February, so I've probably gotten a bit better since this video was taken.

      https://goo.gl/photos/hzJqmwnnrXH565KTA
      Last edited by laistrogian; 06-09-2016 at 12:45 AM.

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    30. Top | #78
      Boogar is offline
      says Spin for the win!
       
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      Quote Originally Posted by laistrogian View Post
      I've only been taking lessons from my current coach for less than 3 months and I don't know if it affects his decisions or not, but he does run a TT shop in his club. But I think he's been a good coach. Most of the time he drills me about my footwork and swinging too big on my FH



      I'm probably just going with OV Pro and OV Europe with the offensive S. Tenergy's tolerance in making great loop is absurd, I agree.

      Here's a video of me doing some 3rd ball with my friend. This was in February, so I've probably gotten a bit better since this video was taken.

      https://goo.gl/photos/hzJqmwnnrXH565KTA

      +1 for the video Have you tried Vega pro? It is a bit harder however its control and spin is great. It still is quiet fast but not as fast as omega v or tenergy.
      Last edited by Boogar; 06-09-2016 at 01:02 AM.

    31. Top | #79
      ttmonster is offline
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      Nice video and I am glad that you shared. I still see this as multiple technique issues, I will let others comment :

      1. You are dropping your paddle before every shot.
      2. You are swinging too hard and too big on both wings. As Carl and NextLevel had commented earlier, the contact is too direct , the spin contact is missing. Actually, does not matter what equipment you use , if you swing that hard you will never be able to develop touch, feeling , technique and consistency. You have to remember that power in table tennis comes from timing not from muscle ...
      3. The feet are spread to far apart , could not see any preparatory footwork for the shots on either wing.
      4. Lack of waist rotation on forehand , you are going down and coming up.
      5. On the backhand , I think the stroke is too forward, the swing should be to the side..

      ... and so on ...

      Quote Originally Posted by laistrogian View Post
      I've only been taking lessons from my current coach for less than 3 months and I don't know if it affects his decisions or not, but he does run a TT shop in his club. But I think he's been a good coach. Most of the time he drills me about my footwork and swinging too big on my FH



      I'm probably just going with OV Pro and OV Europe with the offensive S. Tenergy's tolerance in making great loop is absurd, I agree.

      Here's a video of me doing some 3rd ball with my friend. This was in February, so I've probably gotten a bit better since this video was taken.

      https://goo.gl/photos/hzJqmwnnrXH565KTA
      Last edited by ttmonster; 06-09-2016 at 01:10 AM.

    32. The Following 2 Users Like ttmonster's Post:

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    33. Top | #80
      Boogar is offline
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      @ttmonster
      Mind watching my new video?



      I have more on my yt channel

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