Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

DTopSpirit · Aug 31, 2016

NextLevel said:
I think the brain dead play comment is unfair because it ignores the fact that the first game score was 11-3 and it probably ignores that I beat same opponent using largely the same tactics badly so what in part requires explanation is what changed. The part where I think it is fair is that I had a coach watching and dissecting most of my opponents for the first time in a long a while but unfortunately he was watching another match with another player while I was playing. Having won the first match and first game so easily, I didn't have an effective handle on what had changed. I could definitely have played much differently, but I don't know whether that would have taught me anything unless I get a better handle on what he changed. If he simply adapted by taking the ball later, that is fair. Or he just figured out how to chop topspins that he could not chop 3 mins earlier, and given how this happens with serves, that is possible too. In fact, if you ask the chopper what he changed, he will tell you he largely started making more noise to get into my head and apologized for it much later in the day unsolicited.

NextLevel - I have tremendous respect for being willing to put your game up unedited for criticism by one and all.

The brain dead comment could be a bit harsh, but:

1) first game was 11-3 to you, then the wheels fell off. You didn't change anything in the next 3 games. If you need 3 games to figure out what has changed, you are either very bad at tactical play, very unfamiliar with playing choppers (quite possible, there's not many around), or not thinking. I can certainly understand that you might not know what to do to handle his change of tactic, but after the second game you should have realized that he was floating the ball with his forehand chop (the ball sailing off the end of the table all the time was a clue) and then you had 2 games to try anything that came to mind to fix the problem. Playing differently would have taught you whether you had correctly figured out his change or not, provided you executed your own change of tactic properly.

2) He didn't figure out how to chop topspins he couldn't chop 3 minutes earlier, he STOPPED trying to chop topspins with spin and decided to float the ball back with little or no backspin, which makes it much easier to control the ball. Again, not everybody knows that unless they have talked to a chopper or played them often, so you might possibly not realize that, which is fair enough.

3) If I was the chopper and wanted to keep beating you in future, I might quite possibly not tell you what I had actually done to change the dynamic of the match. Keep in mind that he basically changed 1 thing. Just one. The rest was on you - ball placement, trying to hit too many difficult balls, opening up with half speed/spin attacks. The other stuff he just did a little bit better.

Bottom line - if tactics that gave you an 11-3 win suddenly come up with a next game loss, and you didn't suddenly have a breakdown of some sort, your opponent has likely changed something about his game. Top priority is to figure out what it is and come up with some sort of plan to counter the change. You didn't do that, hence the possibly unfair brain dead comment. Perhaps brain asleep would have been more accurate. Believe me, I've done it too.

Greg

NextLevel · Aug 31, 2016

DTopSpirit said:
NextLevel - I have tremendous respect for being willing to put your game up unedited for criticism by one and all.

The brain dead comment could be a bit harsh, but:

1) first game was 11-3 to you, then the wheels fell off. You didn't change anything in the next 3 games. If you need 3 games to figure out what has changed, you are either very bad at tactical play, very unfamiliar with playing choppers (quite possible, there's not many around), or not thinking. I can certainly understand that you might not know what to do to handle his change of tactic, but after the second game you should have realized that he was floating the ball with his forehand chop (the ball sailing off the end of the table all the time was a clue) and then you had 2 games to try anything that came to mind to fix the problem. Playing differently would have taught you whether you had correctly figured out his change or not, provided you executed your own change of tactic properly.

2) He didn't figure out how to chop topspins he couldn't chop 3 minutes earlier, he STOPPED trying to chop topspins with spin and decided to float the ball back with little or no backspin, which makes it much easier to control the ball. Again, not everybody knows that unless they have talked to a chopper or played them often, so you might possibly not realize that, which is fair enough.

3) If I was the chopper and wanted to keep beating you in future, I might quite possibly not tell you what I had actually done to change the dynamic of the match. Keep in mind that he basically changed 1 thing. Just one. The rest was on you - ball placement, trying to hit too many difficult balls, opening up with half speed/spin attacks. The other stuff he just did a little bit better.

Bottom line - if tactics that gave you an 11-3 win suddenly come up with a next game loss, and you didn't suddenly have a breakdown of some sort, your opponent has likely changed something about his game. Top priority is to figure out what it is and come up with some sort of plan to counter the change. You didn't do that, hence the possibly unfair brain dead comment. Perhaps brain asleep would have been more accurate. Believe me, I've done it too.

Greg

Understood. The difference between us is that I have had 5 years of play doing this and I have no natural read of spin. I could tell the balls were going long because they were no spin balls but reading that they were no spin balls is something that I currently cannot do. It's one of the curses of learning the advanced game at an age where the brain does not deploy the same resources for doing certain things that it would for people who played a lot as kids or even younger adults. I have similar problems with serve return or even playing people with double inverted off the table games.

It's always a funny conversation when I am talking with a player who reads spin well and he calls out the spin on a serve and I give him that blank stare. My guess is that if there is a no spin ball, my brain, even if it reads it, has nothing to use to distinguish it with a purely different stroke from a regular spin ball. This is definitely true in the context of a rally.

What I am grateful for is the explanation. A friend of mine told me exactly the same thing (he struggled with the same chopper twice but at least played the chopper with his coach). He said that the chopper likely had more room in the second match and just played a retrieving game, which was what happened to him. I didn't watch either match again before posting them here as I wanted motivation to do so by having a framework for thinking through the match.

We don't play table tennis with our brains per se. We play table tennis with out learned and trained experience. While similar things have happened before, this is the first time I have had it in quite a contrasting way against through same opponent on the same day.

I just have to find the right kind of drill to fix or work on some of this and it will get better.

DTopSpirit · Aug 31, 2016

Ah, that explains quite a bit. You are doing quite well for 5 years of play. I know experienced good players who still can't play against a decent chopper to save themselves, so it's not just you. More time against choppers will improve your ability to read what is going on - the difficulty is finding any to play against!

Quick tip for players who struggle to read spin, when playing choppers who don't twiddle much: Go for the pips during the short game with no spin of your own, and then attack very hard wide to the inverted side or right hip (for a right hander), or wide to the pips.

Playing to the pips in the short game with no spin virtually guarantees a float or very light spin coming back, making it easier to get your first attack in strong. If you don't like the reply keep floating to the pips until you get one you like.

Attacking very strong to the inverted side greatly increases the chances of a float return, since it is the easier shot to make for most choppers. Play this side more if you are good at hitting float balls. If you attack medium hard to the inverted, it's easier for the chopper to start varying the spin with decent control, which is not what you want.

Attacking very strong to the pips virtually guarantees a heavy backspin return, which can be attacked or pushed depending on whether you are good at attacking backspin. Either way you know what spin is coming back.

Using these tactics makes things more predictable because the chopper has to do something difficult to get his spin variation - either twiddle or take a risk using the inverted to spin the chop against a strong attack.

Of course, if you are playing a decent chopper who can twiddle and vary the spin on his chops, you are probably going to lose. But trying to apply this as often as you can will help make his returns more predictable, and give you a better chance.

Cheers,
Greg

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 31, 2016

Yeah. Glad the brain dead issue was understood and sorted out while I was sleeping. Hahaha.

I thought what Greg said was all really good info. For brain dead just translate not thinking things through, not analyzing and adjusting, and continuing with the same strategy because that is what your body does. In short here is the formula PNut would be looking for to explain the physics of the situation: Brain Dead = Autopilot. And the autopilot function was simply on because of earlier success. And it was hard to turn off because of that.

I am sure that has happened to almost any offensive player, particularly against a pips player who you heave beaten easily before.

What I am about to say, doesn't in any way change or contradict from what Greg said. Greg explained technically, what the chopper's adjustment was. I will explain it more simply. As a general statement, for the most part, in the first match and the second game of the second match, the chopper simply did not get your topspin balls on the table. Look how often, off your serves and loops, his shots go long. Look how many winners you hit off your first loop.

In that second game of the second match, he started getting pretty much everything on the table. I like the technical explanation Greg gave of how. I would have to watch the matches more closely to see and understand what he is seeing. Sadly, on an NYC subway train, on a cell phone, that is not so easy to do. Later I may have time to watch the matches more closely to analyze what is happening.

But in one sense it may be as simple as what happens when you play someone a match and you are having a lot of trouble returning their serves and then you adjust to them and your returns start being solid. And you didn't even consciously change much. You just start seeing them better and adjusting to the different spins on the serves.

He started getting the serves and first attacks on the table. And quite frequently you missed the second attack. You were much more under pressure. The returns you were getting were not as easy to attack.

I have had plenty of matches where I ripped through someone in the first game only to find that the player adjusted and then the tables got turned and i did not think or change what I was doing but kept thinking, it worked before. Why isn't it working now. I kept losing points, doing what I did that had previously worked but was not working anymore. And that was me on autopilot and doing what I do. And not thinking and adjusting. So, as stated above: Autopilot = Brain Dead.

Perhaps the term sounds harsh but....I don't think Greg meant it that way at all. I think he just meant that you did not think, you did not analyze what was going wrong, and you kept doing what had worked in the first game and the previous match without thinking about it.

Now, truthfully, you did adjust in the last game of the second match. But not quite enough to extend the match. So, I think, if you had another match, you may have sorted things out one way or another, without the help of someone (like a coach) telling you how to adjust.

That being said, Greg's suggestions of ways to adjust and different tactical approaches for facing that kind of pips player ARE GOLDEN.

And man, I wish I could read spin better too. Hahaha. I can't tell you how many dead balls I've ripped long and then thought, "how did I mess up on that ball!!!" without processing what exactly just happened.

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UpSideDownCarl · Aug 31, 2016

Now for some comedy:

Hehe.

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NextLevel · Aug 31, 2016

Well, some of you may recognize a player/coach in the background. The match itself, well, it will show you what happens when you can't read the spin on someone's serve. Thankfully, that problem went both ways.

NextLevel · Aug 31, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
Yeah. Glad the brain dead issue was understood and sorted out while I was sleeping. Hahaha.

I thought what Greg said was all really good info. For brain dead just translate not thinking things through, not analyzing and adjusting, and continuing with the same strategy because that is what your body does. In short here is the formula PNut would be looking for to explain the physics of the situation: Brain Dead = Autopilot. And the autopilot function was simply on because of earlier success. And it was hard to turn off because of that.

I am sure that has happened to almost any offensive player, particularly against a pips player who you heave beaten easily before.

What I am about to say, doesn't in any way change or contradict from what Greg said. Greg explained technically, what the chopper's adjustment was. I will explain it more simply. As a general statement, for the most part, in the first match and the second game of the second match, the chopper simply did not get your topspin balls on the table. Look how often, off your serves and loops, his shots go long. Look how many winners you hit off your first loop.

In that second game of the second match, he started getting pretty much everything on the table. I like the technical explanation Greg gave of how. I would have to watch the matches more closely to see and understand what he is seeing. Sadly, on an NYC subway train, on a cell phone, that is not so easy to do. Later I may have time to watch the matches more closely to analyze what is happening.

But in one sense it may be as simple as what happens when you play someone a match and you are having a lot of trouble returning their serves and then you adjust to them and your returns start being solid. And you didn't even consciously change much. You just start seeing them better and adjusting to the different spins on the serves.

He started getting the serves and first attacks on the table. And quite frequently you missed the second attack. You were much more under pressure. The returns you were getting were not as easy to attack.

I have had plenty of matches where I ripped through someone in the first game only to find that the player adjusted and then the tables got turned and i did not think or change what I was doing but kept thinking, it worked before. Why isn't it working now. I kept losing points, doing what I did that had previously worked but was not working anymore. And that was me on autopilot and doing what I do. And not thinking and adjusting. So, as stated above: Autopilot = Brain Dead.

Perhaps the term sounds harsh but....I don't think Greg meant it that way at all. I think he just meant that you did not think, you did not analyze what was going wrong, and you kept doing what had worked in the first game and the previous match without thinking about it.

Now, truthfully, you did adjust in the last game of the second match. But not quite enough to extend the match. So, I think, if you had another match, you may have sorted things out one way or another, without the help of someone (like a coach) telling you how to adjust.

That being said, Greg's suggestions of ways to adjust and different tactical approaches for facing that kind of pips player ARE GOLDEN.

And man, I wish I could read spin better too. Hahaha. I can't tell you how many dead balls I've ripped long and then thought, "how did I mess up on that ball!!!" without processing what exactly just happened.

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In the first match, I also hit winners off my second loop as well. I think that's the part you are missing.

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 31, 2016

Oh, btw: the drill I have seen for seeing the different spins is:

1) pips/inverted combo player (coach) chops,
2) you loop

When the pips player chops, he calls out dead, medium or heavy depending on the chop. At a certain point, you start seeing the contact, hearing the sound, and seeing the spin better. Then the coach (pips player) stops telling you and forces you to read as he mixes spin.

I had Robert Chen do this to me once and I was woefully bad at it. But it was years ago. Edmund has tried to do it to me. And I am better at it now. But he is not the best chopper. Hahaha.

I think with enough of that drill, eventually, you just start reading the spin.

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UpSideDownCarl · Aug 31, 2016

NextLevel said:
In the first match, I also hit winners off my second loop as well. I think that's the part you are missing.

Yep. I am simplifying and generalizing. The balls he is getting back in second match, after first game are much higher quality.

The important info is: Autopilot and how you were lulled into that by earlier success.

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DTopSpirit · Aug 31, 2016

Thanks Carl - I did indeed mean brain dead as in autopilot or not thinking, not as in being stupid. Poor choice of phrase methinks.

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 31, 2016

DTopSpirit said:
Thanks Carl - I did indeed mean brain dead as in autopilot or not thinking, not as in being stupid. Poor choice of phrase methinks.

It not being me, I got what you meant. If it was referring to me, I may have bellowed like a bafoon unlike the reasoned response from NextLevel. Hahaha.

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ttmonster · Aug 31, 2016

Just once in a while @NextLevel, just once in a while , keep making such mistakes , because we all get to learn so much from your mistakes . Thank you for the video and thanks to all the posters so far who have critiqued it , learnt lots between yesterday night and today morning on what to look out for while playing choppers. Need to book mark this thread. I don't know how many appreciate the quality of breakdown in the posts above, its really free pro quality match analysis.

Again , for somebody probably 400 points below your level @NextLevel, other than what has been already told , here are somethings I felt contributed to your downfall.

I noticed was that the guy was able to move you around more than you were able to do to him, in the sense , uncomfortable movement.
I felt your strategy of going down the middle was more successful but you did not use it as much. That guy had come with a specific strategy into the match , he knows you have physical limitations, he never served long , even to surprise you, on your backhand. And right off the first couple of serves he was trying to get his dead ball chops into action even though he was missing them at first, this is what I felt . Also, I felt you were doing really well when you got the first attack in early with your backhand , something to think about ?

Somehow , like some other choppers he is probably comfortable retrieving stuff wide on both forehands and backhands given the space ... I guess if you could have gone down the middle a little bit more with pushes or spinny loops , it might have helped... again take it with a pinch of salt. Its always easier to critique than to execute... I am sure you must have had your reasons .. .

OldschoolPenholder · Aug 31, 2016

NextLevel said:
In fact, if you ask the chopper what he changed, he will tell you he largely started making more noise to get into my head and apologized for it much later in the day unsolicited.

i generally don't let that get me... i used to play with friends and we would regularly trash talk each other during the game, sometimes even during the point itself. they trash talked me more than i trash talked them. generally not my style, but we were a close-knit group of friends and ribbed each other mercilessly. however, when i play others, i don't trash talk.

if my opponent 'woofs' after i've lost a point ... it's over, no need to dwell on it and get me into a 'downward spiral'... i focus on being in the moment and start afresh. gotta block out the woofing. take a breath or 2. easy to say, hard to do.

however, as you are dealing with your arthritic pain, you have found a way to block the feeling of pain ... i feel you should be able to block out the woofing also.

if i am out of line with my comments, i apologize in advance. please do let me know.

thank you for posting videos of your games!

OldschoolPenholder · Aug 31, 2016

Shuki said:
Every time I'm in a rut I try different things to break through it. This time it was basically telling myself that I'm fkin good and everybody else was worse than me. (In my head of course)

Turns out this kind of confidence worked out pretty darn well.

First off, speedy and healthy recovery!

2nd, thank you for the reminder, i've been in a little rut ... i didn't think to change things up. although my rut is mostly adjusting to new racket/rubber.

3rd, generally people respond better to positivity. some believe 'self-talk' should be framed positive ... i have a good game, i have a good loop, etc. so yeah, you are fkin good works!

thank you again!

Cornel · Aug 31, 2016

Today I went to the club with a little more of a fun playing mindset because I had gone there with my brothers. One of them had some coach training a while ago but currently is playing mostly at work with a player with around similar skills. I've managed to win against him two times 3-2 and 3-1. I am almost always losing my games because I am tactically overplayed. It is some sort of an ugly game with relatively few loops and a good amount of chopping/pushing and quite some points won by serve.

Then I've played a man that had training before and had finally felt my loops a little. Then came the most interesting part, when a veteran penhold hitter came there. He is, I think, ranked 31st in Moldova. It is always exciting to play him because there will be a match without too much chopping/pushing. I've played him a few times before but never managed to take at least a set from him. Today I managed to take 3 sets against him. We were playing best of 7 so he still managed to win the game, but it's already some good progress, mainly because I've managed to think of some tactics that seemed to work. Last time I played him, I've lost a lot of points because some of my serves were long and he simply smashed them. Today I decided to play safe and short in terms of serves - that was the only way to be the one who attacks first. Also, when he was serving I tried to keep my returnas short and low as possible if I was not attacking right off the serve. Pushing your brain to work a little is certainly more useful than playing on autopilot.

Also, tommorow I'm back to school. That means no more 5 days of play per week. There will be 3 days per week in the best case, but I think a rather mediocre number of 2 trainings/week is more realistic considering what happened last school year. I hope I will be able to at least maintain my level of play till next summer.

Cornel · Aug 31, 2016

@Shuki, hope you get well asap, man!

Shuki · Aug 31, 2016

Cornel said:
@Shuki, hope you get well asap, man!

? What did I miss

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 31, 2016

Shuki said:
? What did I miss

Hahaha. OldSchool thought that, when you said you had been in a rut, it meant you had been not well or ill in some way. I guess Cornel saw that and did not see what you wrote.

But what you wrote was an indication that you had been in a cycle of not playing well, rather than not feeling well.

I almost made a comment. But.....

Well, now you know why the whole world is sending you flowers and get well cards. Hahaha.

"Hey, Shuki, I hope you get better fast! Practice, Practice, Practice. That is all it takes to get better!" "Oh, yeah, and a few self affirmations." Hehe.

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Shuki · Sep 1, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
Hahaha. OldSchool thought that, when you said you had been in a rut, it meant you had been not well or ill in some way. I guess Cornel saw that and did not see what you wrote.

But what you wrote was an indication that you had been in a cycle of not playing well, rather than not feeling well.

I almost made a comment. But.....

Well, now you know why the whole world is sending you flowers and get well cards. Hahaha.

"Hey, Shuki, I hope you get better fast! Practice, Practice, Practice. That is all it takes to get better!" "Oh, yeah, and a few self affirmations." Hehe.

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thanks for clarifying, I was pretty lost. Scrolling through like 2 pages looking for where someone said I was ill, injured, sick or something haha.

Cypher · Sep 1, 2016

NextLevel said:
It just makes it harder to play properly or train to play properly for more than a day. After the pain sets in like I am feeling right now, I just wonder what through point of playing is sometimes if I can't sustain my play. I go through periods where I try to bend my knees and give up.

Hey I have rheumatoid arthritis too. Have you tried Humira? It helped me tremendously and I literally feel normal again. Notice a huge difference when I'm off it. If you want I can give you more info but tbh talking to your doctor about it is the way to go. But totally recommend it!!!!

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