Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

NextLevel said:

Any tips to improve my forehand topspin? My hitting partner here said that my spin on my forehand topspin is less than that on my backhand topspin and I would like to see if anyone has any insight why so that I can figure out how to improve the spin on my forehand.

https://youtu.be/Npsv58K6CjU?t=828

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Given that it is public knowledge that Next Level LOVES to put Heavy Topspin on the Ball... his public question is interesting.

Anyone not know what I said should look at his MyTT signature and look at Greg Letts vid again... and again.

Next Level and anyone looking at the vid can see that Next Level is NOT starting his FH power with legs or hip. He is using about zero legs or hips on the vid clip.

How then is NL generating bat speed in the clip? He is using the shoulder joint as a pivot lever to move upper and lower arm forward to get motion started, then accelerates to lower arm before impact. It helps he has really LONG arms to get the bat speed he does. That helps with his style of DIRECT IMPACT FH vs an incoming blocked ball or incoming light topspin. It wouldn't help much with an opening against underspin, surely, he would need to get down more... and hurts NL. He is working with what he has.

I DO see a chance to engage the hips and borrow the kinetic energy created with a SHORT HIP started with a tiny knee bend (NL is capable of a few inches of knee bend and a few inches of hip). Concept is to get down a tiny, come up (knee bend and un-bend), transfer that into the hips and do a tiny short hip explosion, stay loose, borrow that kinetic energy (the arm is now moving a bit from that) once arm is moving some, leverage the shot in a similar way that NL is doing already (but requiring less backswing) and get some more potential power.

This is still not the optimal prototypical kid-trained FH, but NL is not a kid and doesn't have the joints of a kid.

There are also a few things to be done with the hand, which is what is really the larger factor at the end in deciding the speed and spin level to go along with how direct the impact is. It is a matter of less direct hit through and more of a catch and grab to throw feel. Even with FH in the vid clip, NL could make a more massive spin medium loop than he does in the vid.

@NL

- Maybe you can try a more spinny rubber like Dignics.
- Go for less power. You want always to hit the ball hard in FH in this video. We can hear the hard sound. Try to brush more the ball -even if it means first going for 90% 80% or 70% (whatever) power to adjust for that. Of course everything said helps, going lower, better coordination with the body. You seem to be putting a lot of effort in all your FH stroke. I think trying to be a bit more relaxed would help.
- You could try to change the timing a bit: taking the ball a bit later would make it easier, but with a shorter swing to put more acceleration.
- Personally i don't think its necessary to think about changing anything about your FH. I think there is already enough spin. The only problem that I see is that if you always hit hard the ball will always come back fast, so its more about being able to be able to keep the ball in play as many times as possible. Against weaker players or same level in a match, 1 or 2FH will always make the point because it's a powerful and fast shot. But against a more advanced player with a good block that will prove a bit more problematic I believe.

NextLevel said:

I've thought about it some more and I realize that the way I use my arm on the forehand is kinda wrong with the backswing being to far away from the body to force me to sync it up with the hip - engages the upper arm and shoulder too much. Changing my forehand might hurt a bit so it will be a slow process.

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Perhaps use more of TTEdge video technique, method 3, of LTT102? In other words, more elliptical, rounded backswing rather than back and forward on similar track. To me that tweak feels to use hips more and shoulders less.

Flatstyk said:

Perhaps use more of TTEdge video technique, method 3, of LTT102? In other words, more elliptical, rounded backswing rather than back and forward on similar track. To me that tweak feels to use hips more and shoulders less.

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Basically, this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoAQA3JgaXQ

I do it sometimes, I just need to do it every time. That's not one of my favorite TTEdge videos, but that is another story. It's not just an elliptical backswing, it is the locking of the backswing rotation with the body/hip by a certain positioning of the upper arm.

Der_Echte said:

Next Level and anyone looking at the vid can see that Next Level is NOT starting his FH power with legs or hip. He is using about zero legs or hips on the vid clip.

How then is NL generating bat speed in the clip? He is using the shoulder joint as a pivot lever to move upper and lower arm forward to get motion started, then accelerates to lower arm before impact. It helps he has really LONG arms to get the bat speed he does. That helps with his style of DIRECT IMPACT FH vs an incoming blocked ball or incoming light topspin. It wouldn't help much with an opening against underspin, surely, he would need to get down more... and hurts NL. He is working with what he has.

I DO see a chance to engage the hips and borrow the kinetic energy created with a SHORT HIP started with a tiny knee bend (NL is capable of a few inches of knee bend and a few inches of hip). Concept is to get down a tiny, come up (knee bend and un-bend), transfer that into the hips and do a tiny short hip explosion, stay loose, borrow that kinetic energy (the arm is now moving a bit from that) once arm is moving some, leverage the shot in a similar way that NL is doing already (but requiring less backswing) and get some more potential power.

This is still not the optimal prototypical kid-trained FH, but NL is not a kid and doesn't have the joints of a kid.

There are also a few things to be done with the hand, which is what is really the larger factor at the end in deciding the speed and spin level to go along with how direct the impact is. It is a matter of less direct hit through and more of a catch and grab to throw feel. Even with FH in the vid clip, NL could make a more massive spin medium loop than he does in the vid.

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What do you recommend be done with the hand?

Takkyu_wa_inochi said:

@NL

- Maybe you can try a more spinny rubber like Dignics.
- Go for less power. You want always to hit the ball hard in FH in this video. We can hear the hard sound. Try to brush more the ball -even if it means first going for 90% 80% or 70% (whatever) power to adjust for that. Of course everything said helps, going lower, better coordination with the body. You seem to be putting a lot of effort in all your FH stroke. I think trying to be a bit more relaxed would help.
- You could try to change the timing a bit: taking the ball a bit later would make it easier, but with a shorter swing to put more acceleration.
- Personally i don't think its necessary to think about changing anything about your FH. I think there is already enough spin. The only problem that I see is that if you always hit hard the ball will always come back fast, so its more about being able to be able to keep the ball in play as many times as possible. Against weaker players or same level in a match, 1 or 2FH will always make the point because it's a powerful and fast shot. But against a more advanced player with a good block that will prove a bit more problematic I believe.

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I have thought about the rubber but I think given that the difference is between backhand and forehand, let me try technique before switching. The blocker said there is a noticeable difference in his view between the backhand quality and the forehand quality, so taking him at his word, and based on my usual experience where most people fear the spin on my backhand but fear the power of my forehand, I think he is likely right. So I am just looking for what could add more spin. If I go for less power, for me that doesn't generate spin by itself - there has to be a technical adjustment related to that. You think taking the ball a bit later is the answer?

by less power i mean transmitting less forward momentum/speed to the ball and more spin.

others things i can think of is adjusting your bat angle to have it at impact more parallel at the trajectory of the ball. different timing possibilities but you have to be in the right position to be able to do that.

you are really taking a full FH swing which makes it a good powerful FH. I think actually its rather good. But another way I can see is shorten the strokes try to give you some extra time to take the backswing a bit earlier and WAIT a bit more before starting the swing. if you wait an extra -say- 0.1sec to swing while having the same hitting point then it means you're swinger faster. the extra time can be used to analyse the trajectory to be able to brush the ball better.

My feeling is that at impact you are a bit too tense which prevents you to feel more the ball. you should try to use a little wrist (not a big use of wrist, just a very little) and feel like your index finger is guiding the bat and the ball. This is true both for FH and BH.

just my 0.02. trying to give you some ideas

PS
I'm trying to improve myself my recovery time, and I'm focusing on being ready in position as soon as the ball bounces on the other side of the table. If I am in position only when the ball is in the racket of the opponent it's too late, and even its before that but well after the bounce I feel it's too late now.

NextLevel said:

What do you recommend be done with the hand?

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I am talking about it being a little more loose for a touch longer... and there is also allowing a little more wrist snap.

NextLevel said:

...The blocker said there is a noticeable difference in his view between the backhand quality and the forehand quality, so taking him at his word, and based on my usual experience where most people fear the spin on my backhand but fear the power of my forehand, I think he is likely right.

So I am just looking for what could add more spin. If I go for less power, for me that doesn't generate spin by itself - there has to be a technical adjustment related to that. You think taking the ball a bit later is the answer?

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I always hear similar comments from much better players when I practice with them. They always tell me my BH is way more developed than my FH. I conclude it is because I can see the ball better and have a more natural control of my biomechanics there... somehow, it is easier for me to do a full variety of BH strokes with control... that lets me go for power or spin or consistency.

I am never good enough to test them in FH to FH low spin 25x-50x consecutive at the table, I rarely make that many at 3/4 speed consecutively. I never can do fast loop with them FH to FH for very long like I can do on BH. I can only do the FH to FH with spin or speed at mid to long distance. I think the doctor dropped me when I was born, somewhere, my head hit the ground, causing the hospital to replace the damaged floor tile, and I have never been able to play FH to FH at the table high speed with consistency since.

My brain seems to want more time on FH to see the ball. NL is much better than me in that department.

NL's current FH power comes from stabilizing his body with enough wide stance, being in position, starting the movement of the upper and lower arm with a swing hinge of his shoulder (powered by his upper back muscles)…

… He gets motion started that way and has a stable base. He does not need an ultra wide stance to stabilize a big hip and shoulder torqueing movement as he doesn't use those for power. He gets his power by allowing motion started and IMPULSING his upper bicep to snap the lower arm through the target. (and I suspect a real firming of grip at impact)

He doesn't use much wrist. His overall motion is quite long. His ability to see the ball, be in enough position, and time the arrival of ball to impact zone is excellent. His stroke has only a few moving parts (even if the motion is pretty long), is repeatable, and dependable under pressure. That sounds like the traits of a successful FH for his level... but NL rightfully seeks a Next Level FH.

My suggestion for a FH to consider is to...

Replace a lot of the long backswing and forward arm swing with using a tiny bit of leg and hip to shorten stroke, but get power...

- Do a few inches knee bend
- Push off with right leg some
- Do a quick explosion of hips rotation and forward move by a few inches
- Stay loose and allow that kinetic energy to reach shoulder area - allow it to go through (keep shoulder loose)
- Swing the upper and lower arm forward like his previous FH, but with a shorter backswing (don't need the longer swing to get energy generated)
- Impulse upper bicep to snap lower arm like previous FH, but less overall swing distance
- Impulse meaty part of lower arm by elbow to allow some wrist snap (not the slap or pronate kind)
- Impulse lower meaty arm muscle to firm up grip at impact

NL had adapted the FH seen in the vid due to his body not being able to get down and torque like a conventional FH... and he has adapted well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ7SPHY0BzM

Taking off a two week break but this is possibly the first step of rebuilding....

Nextlevel, why do you think you need more spin on your forehand?

At the sound of the hit it sometimes sound like you have a flatter hit on your forehandstroke so your friend might be correct.

I feel that as long as you take the ball at the highest point you do not need so much spin, because the ball will go over the net anyway. To much spin and the ball goes slower. As long as it is spin so you do not feel that it is unsafe, but if you have trouble moving sometimes maybe spin is good because you sometimes come wrong to the ball. Of course maybe it could be harder for the opponent with more spin sometime.

I do not think the body have so much to do with spin, more about the forearm. I Think you could try to snap the the forearm more and make the motion faster. So focus on relax the arm, extend it then snap the forearm together, trying to EXPLODE at impact. Now i feel that it seems like the motion of the arm is moving almost in one speed.

I have come to notice that both of you and me are very interested in technique and how to do the strokes. I Think it is good for guys like us to remember that it do not need to be perfect, we do need to have Amazing basic strokes like loops if we are not really good at serve and return, become then we never comes to our Amazing loops haha.

Merry Christmas!

does anyone know how to do the proper loop ? if you know a video I would appriciated if you can put the link here .

meys57 said:

does anyone know how to do the proper loop ? if you know a video I would appriciated if you can put the link here .

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This video seems clear to me. Perhaps the regulars here will have comments on the technique also.
https://youtu.be/-_WQn34bGtU

What do you mean "proper loop"?

I feel like the longer you play the more you will notice that there not really such thing as a perfect or proper loop. If you look at the pros everyone plays a bit difference. I Think there are more like guidelines you should try to follow, and as long as you get alot of energy out in the ball and that the stroke suit your style of play then it is good.

I Think that if you search forehand loop at Youtube and then Watch many videos you will notice that they Always bring up the same stuff, but maybe in different Words. Try to focus on those things.

I Think it would be easier if you posted a video of your loop and then people can here give you some tips you can try out.

so no forumers from TTD went to play in the US Open ?

just looked at Adam Bobrow's results for fun... he played in open, U2300 and U2200. won a few matches but didn't go far.

as usual plenty of Japanese (and Chinese ?) players i've never heard about, and one Japanese winner in Men's singles. But Lily Zhang made it in Women's singles !

There were a few more familiar names but as usual they didn't make it... Daniel Gorak, Enzo Angles, ..., Adina Diaconu, Matilda Ekholm...

How Do Bobrow play? Feel like he proably is better at just doing high balls now since he practice all the time. Would be cool to see him play seriously.

Lula said:

How Do Bobrow play? Feel like he proably is better at just doing high balls now since he practice all the time. Would be cool to see him play seriously.

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I am not so sure "play seriously" and Adam Bobrow really go together. I have met him. I have hit with him. It was years ago. He was darn good. But he really seemed to enjoy messing around and having a laugh. The psychology behind that might be interesting to examine. But I am not sure him "playing seriously" would really be him playing seriously since, what he does best is clown around.

UpSideDownCarl said:

I am not so sure "play seriously" and Adam Bobrow really go together. I have met him. I have hit with him. It was years ago. He was darn good. But he really seemed to enjoy messing around and having a laugh. The psychology behind that might be interesting to examine. But I am not sure him "playing seriously" would really be him playing seriously since, what he does best is clown around.

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I don't understand why everyone thinks you need to play attacking table tennis on a consistent basis to play seriously. Bobrow's best game is his lobbing game.

NextLevel said:

I don't understand why everyone thinks you need to play attacking table tennis on a consistent basis to play seriously. Bobrow's best game is his lobbing game.

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He would have won against Hao Shaui.